Judge Hearing Prop 8 Case Is Gay

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I have attempted to keep in tack my theology throughout this conversation just not overbearingly so. I understand that it can be a quick way to shut down any meaningful conversation but we have both been speaking our theologies clearly, and thats why we differ on this issue ( i guess we differ on others) but yet in our differences we have humanity in common (civility as well). Everything you believe touches what you think about God and therefore every statement you or I or anyone make is in some way a reflection of what we believe about God. But as we have sharpened each other regarding the gay life why do I sense your ready to pick up your bags and leave as we meander into things more important? There are many things as a christian that I don't get to defend because people don't want to stand toe to toe with christians because ultimately, eventually the ultimatum is presented. God or no god. It is easy to confuse the stiff arm of christians with the stiff arm of Gods law written in your heart. Your conscience. Unfortunately our culture has confused true christianity with americanism to the point where you get the phrase "traditional" your church was as cultural as apple pie. things tell me your church had lost the distinction between Christ and the world, and that eventually leads to a Christless christianity, a christianity that is for the most part as american as apple pie on fourth of july. It is a great way of life it just happens to be worse then blatant atheism. I respect the atheist way more than a Christless "christian". This is what marks our country and its why you will see us loosing the moral battle in the world. We will be the eastern Europe of the world in a few short years only hopefully our ladies will still shave there arm pitts. My view of the world is tethered to my view of God, I can only hold a position that God holds I have to make my thoughts follow after his thoughts. If we have difference in beliefs then I assume they are tethered to some truth (right?) but why then do we differ is my truth different than yours? Is your truth true. Or is life just relative and each person is responsible for there own version of truth as long as it doesn't infringe or hinder the way I live my life? I always want to be a part of the truest truth, but I need someone to explain and go toe to toe as to why mine is not. Then maybe we can both have the same truth. If their is no moral giver then there is no morality, everyone is a final authority unto themselves and if that were the case I would have no argument against anything let alone the gay lifestyle. The mind of the christless is consumed by the desires of a deceptive heart. I would love to continue but I leave that with you. I presented my case (feeble as it may be) how do you defend? Understand I have no interest in forcing this issue but if you would like to continue, as I can, I will.

Hey Dan. Quite the ground we've covered over the past few days. The description of my parents is not what you might think. I wouldn't have mentioned the Sarah Palin/Focus On the Family/Beck thing were it not for the fact that it illustrates that I didn't come from a hippie, gay-fused environment. They are not very religious people and really are the most down-to-earth people you'll find. They're not savage right-wingers by any stretch. They are just people who have always (and I'm so very thankful for this) put family first. Family always has come ahead of work, religion, public image, etc. There was never any bible-thumping whatsoever in my upbringing. We went to church because it was a small town and it really was a community thing. I was encouraged to think and question things often. As far as the Sarah Palin/Beck thing, it's not a huge issue. I can't stand both of them, but my dad likes them and we agree to disagree. It's not a touchy atmosphere or awkward situation to come home. I look forward to it. I'm not being being melodramatic when I say with all of my heart that I've never met better parents than my own. There was no vortex of family values or over-parenting, but just an atmosphere of unconditional love. We're the kind of family that still says "I love you" and hugs, sisters, brothers, parents, and the kind that genuinely enjoys spending time with each other (a good lesson to people on the left who often look at conservatives as 2-dimensional religious nuts; not all are like that.) You'd probably be quite stunned to spend time with my family how unique and warm the atmosphere is. Nothing in my upbringing encouraged me to be gay; I never had a rebellious stage or wanted to break away from any traditions. It's just the way it is. I am glad we agree that marriages of convenience are bad. I don't think getting into the religious side of this argument is going to be beneficial because it requires that we argue 2 things at once: the existence or lack of existence of a god, and the morality/validity of gay relationships. They are 2 issues and your religion has stayed out of the equation so far, which is one of the reasons I don't mind debating you (you haven't used theology to defend your arguments thus far.) May have different beliefs than you, but there is no resentment or hatred for a god of any religion.

hey there, I am sorry to here about your parents love for sarah palin and glenn beck and as far as focus on the family goes, I cringed at first until i finally accepted the bumper sticker that said " focus on you own damn family" Pat Robertson is a lot of good things but he has an unfortunate way of dragging all christians into the black hole called fundamentalism. We become victims by having something in common. Many are saved from their cultural sins into the hell that is fundamentalism. Sounds like your parents were swirling in the vortex that is family values. That may be the real sad story in all this. How many gay people come from well meaning families makes one rethink all the notions of why people become gay? I'll admit I have few real exposure to gay men but I did have a roomate in college who swung left, and while i would still consider him a friend its not the kind of friendship that changes a life. I am sure you have caught on that I am a christian and as far as changing your life goes only the holy spirit can do such things getting married to a lady to "straighten" one out is abuse of marriage as well. Same goes for the porn addict its no reason to marry. My illistrations with the magnets gets no chastisement because it fits perfectly. I am not saying that ceasing from being gay is going to be easy or that its even doable what I am saying is that as a married man the relationship I have with my wife is secondary to that of my Lord. But its the relationship with my Lord that makes mine with my wife very doable and fitting it helps that I am attracted to her. That might be that I am attracted to women but if I were to have affairs I would be not only breaking a commitment I made with her but also I would be breaking the law of God that clearly states I should not do such things. I guess this is where the rubber hits the road. Do you reject the god of your upbringing? And if you do (however wrong or misguided God may have been presented to you) aren't you doing it in rebellion as opposed to something else. I hope you will reconsider you thoughts about him. And now look where we are we started out amicably enough and now I am thumping you with the gospel, you sure I'me not your dad?