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FRIDAY, NOVEMBER 27, 2009

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Banish Men From
Childbirth: Doc

He says male presence leads to more stress and more C-sections

Nov 26, 09 2:41 PM CST
NYC Man Jumps to His
Death—In Front of Kids

Friends say 53-year-old showed no signs he was suicidal

Nov 26, 09 8:33 AM CST
In Meteor, NASA Sees Best Evidence Yet of Life on Mars

Martian meteorite shows fossilized bacteria

Nov 26, 09 6:17 PM CST
Bulgarian Scientists:
Aliens Have Landed!

Researchers claim they deciphered crop circles

6 hours, 56 minutes ago
Brazil: 'Gringos' Must Pay
to Keep Rainforests

Industrialized nations have done most damage to Amazon

Nov 26, 09 8:00 PM CST
Icebergs Drift Toward
New Zealand

Over 100 floating chunks headed north from Antarctica

Nov 26, 09 10:35 AM CST
Aussies Will Kill
6K Thirsty Camels
Besieging Town

Officials to shoot 6K thirsty, marauding camels

Nov 26, 09 7:00 PM CST
Coma Man's Words
May Not Be His

Experts doubt Houben's 'facilitated communication'

Nov 25, 09 2:28 AM CST
Even Preschool
Girls Worry
About Weight

A third 'almost always' anxious about their looks, study finds

Nov 26, 09 7:27 AM CST
White House Backs Senate On 'Cadillac' Health Tax

Advisers outline cost control measures for health plan

Nov 26, 09 8:48 AM CST
Siberian Tigers Vanishing

Population may be down to mere hundreds

Nov 26, 09 5:03 AM CST
UN Nuclear Agency Blasts
Iran Stonewalling

ElBaradei sees investigation at 'dead end'

Nov 26, 09 5:22 PM CST
Asperger's Boy Lived
in NY Subway 11 Days

Runaway vanished underground

Nov 25, 09 3:00 AM CST

|NEXT STORY »

Darwin Skeptics Separate Mind From Gray Matter

Debate focuses on whether the brain and mind function in tandem

By Wesley Oliver| Posted Feb 21, 09 6:24 PM CST|

(Newser) – To undermine Darwinian theories about the emergence of life, skeptics have a new weapon in mind: the brain, NPR reports. They’re challenging the notion that a cluster of cells could produce such high-level mental processes as consciousness and free will. “It doesn’t hang together,” says one neurosurgeon, who argues that an intelligent designer created the brain and molded the universe.

But a Yale neurologist insists that the mind evolves along with the brain, which “can do things that can plausibly cause consciousness and self-awareness, so the argument really just falls on its face,” he explains. Not so, says the neurosurgeon, who argues that near-death experiences point to a mind that functions independent of the physical brain.

[Images (2)]

[Quotes (1)]

A century and a half after Charles Darwin published his theory of evolution, some still doubt its ability to explain the emergence of human beings and other forms of life. (AP Photo/The Granger Collection)

In this undated photo provided by the Detroit Institute of Arts, "The Thinker," cast in 1904, by French sculptor Auguste Rodin is shown. (AP Photo/Courtesy Detroit Institute of Arts via Grand Rapids Press)

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The question is, is there something else, in addition to the material properties of the brain, that we need to invoke to have an adequate explanation for the mind? I think there is. - Michael Egnor,
State University of New York, Stony Brook

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43 comments

VIEWING:

LeftMiddleRight
Feb 21, 09 6:53 PM CST

And He did it all in 6 days...then rested on Sunday. According to Genesis 1. In the beginning God created the heavens and the Earth...day 1 He created the Earth. Day 3 He created the sun/moon/stars. This story has the planet Earth as God's first thing in the universe. I don't think so. And just because you can have a near death experience doesn't mean there is a creator. It just means that things are more complicated than we first thought. A creator?... Free will!? I don't think so. If there was free will, why would there be so many people doing so many terrible things? Because they choose too, or because they're compelled too..."If I don't stop smoking, it will kill me." "Then stop." "I can't." "Use your free will." Apparently it's not as free as I thought it was." Not to step on too many toes, I could be wrong. Reply

| 0 minutes ago

Doctor_Zaius
Feb 21, 09 7:22 PM CST

Don't know about you but I wouldn't go to a neurosurgeon who didn't believe in evolution. Reply

IN RESPONSE:

woody66
Feb 22, 09 12:43 PM CST

Is it not possible that an Intelligent Designer is using evolution as the design tool ? Are the two really mutually exclusive ? We can study evolution but will never comprehend the infinite with our rational mind IMHO.

| 0 minutes ago

justme
Feb 21, 09 7:31 PM CST

Love it when small minds can be so certain about big things. Whoever God is, he/she is LOL at all of the above. Remember, if humanity is the best thing in the universe, it is a very sad day indeed. Reply

| 0 minutes ago

freethemall
Feb 21, 09 7:51 PM CST

If God made everything, then who made God? You may say that God has always existed, but couldn't you such at easily say That the universe has always existed? On the other hand, I don't think it is logical to think that intelligence and consciousness evolved out of an unconscious and unintelligent universe. This does not mean one has to believe in scripture. That's a false choice. Reply

IN RESPONSE:

Mr.C
Feb 22, 09 12:11 AM CST

yeah i think saying that the universe always exsisted is the same logic I think - evolutionists tie the Big bang theory into their thinking very heavily though while christians say God is timeless.

| 0 minutes ago

Derni
Feb 21, 09 9:17 PM CST

wait to they find out and read about the research into free will-the research shows we have very little if any free will and the mind brian-dualism-that won't work eityher=man are they in trouble now Reply

IN RESPONSE:

Mr.C
Feb 22, 09 12:13 AM CST

We will never be able to definitively say that dualists are wrong - there isn't a litmus test for such things.

| 0 minutes ago

Thinker
Feb 21, 09 11:09 PM CST

A brain surgeon who doesn't believe in evolution? No just scary, but tragic. Think about this: would you rather go to a well-trained, successful doctor who is an atheist, or an uneducated Christian who claims God's guiding hand if you needed brain surgery? Your answer should tell you about your faith. Reply

IN RESPONSE:

Mr.C
Feb 22, 09 12:14 AM CST

I'm sure both beings did just as well on their exams and have the same record of medical success. (I agree with your final statement.)

| 0 minutes ago

MarkFL
Feb 21, 09 11:53 PM CST

Please do not call Intelligent design advocates "skeptics"! That is a term for someone who doubt the claims of the supernatural. Calling these dolts by the wrong name gives them credence. It is not the same thing to disbelieve evolution BECAUSE of unwarranted faith. If this "scientist" wants proof that the human mind is not that complicated, he should study his own evolutionary confusion. Evolution is a beautifully simple theory that is confirmed by every piece of scientific data that we have seen (including DNA, which is the most powerful evidence that evolution occurs). If this creationist doesn't get it, then our minds are certainly flawed. Intelligent design is a cop out and a last gasp for Christian apologists. In fact, anyone who understands complexity will know that design yields simplicity. Complexity is evidence of a lack of design. This is the lamest argument that creationists make. If humans were designed, why do women give birth in an excruciating and ridiculous manner? Why are we prone to violence and misjudgment? Why do we have vestigial structures and pinky fingers? Why do humans have tails (coccyx) and share 99% of our DNA with all other living creatures? Why do we need to eat and sleep? Any intelligent design would have thought about this problems and fixed them. If we are designed at all it was done very poorly and in the exact same manner as we would be occurred anyway given a few billion years to work out some kinks. Evolution explains all of this and creationism ignores it. Life is pretty amazing but it is certainly not intelligent. Finally, let me just say that creationists are missing the one thing that matters the most: evidence. Everything we have observed and that we know confirms that evolution is the way of the world. In fact, there would not even be such thing as a neurosurgeon if it were not for our understanding of evolution. Modern medicine and anatomical understanding exists because of what Darwin explained to us. I hope this "Doctor" runs off to the monastery. The good news: I'm glad to see so many REAL skeptic posts right here on Newser. Keep it up! Reply

IN RESPONSE:

oaktree777
Feb 22, 09 9:36 AM CST

Excellent Post Mark - well said!

IN RESPONSE:

Forderon
Feb 22, 09 10:28 AM CST

Great post MarkFL. And you're right, I've notice that the internet probably is weighted 75-25 to those who don't believe in a supernatural being (AKA, aren't insane). That's a very good sign for your future as a human race.

| 0 minutes ago

LeftMiddleRight
Feb 22, 09 2:46 AM CST

...14 And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth." And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day......... The Sun: The Sun makes up 99% of the mass of the entire Solar System. How big is the Sun's diameter? You could fit 109 Earths side by side to match the diameter of the Sun. The total volume of the Sun is 1.4 x 10 to the 27 power, cubic meters. You could fit 1.3 million Earths inside the Sun with room to spare. The Moon: The Moon is approximately 27% the size of the Earth. The area of the Moon compared to Earth is only 7.4%. The volume of the Moon is only 2% compared to the volume of the Earth. The Moon is only 1.2% of the mass of the Earth. You would need 81 objects with the mass of the Moon to match the mass of the Earth... Things were a lot more simple back then. If God would have given the facts to man 5,000 years ago, man would have written a more accurate story. But then again, man claimed that God talked with them. And the story of Creation was mans proof of their talks. Modern man proved that the story of Creation was just that, a story. So what about the tree of knowledge? Adam & Eve should have known about the moon, Earth, Sun, and the order of our solar system once they ate the forbidden fruit. Things just don't add up....no mention of the other planets either. Reply

| 0 minutes ago

riffran
Feb 22, 09 6:04 AM CST

the bible doesn't explain dinosaurs very well either....But I think the two are not mutually exclusive....whats a "day" to an all powerfull omnipotent entity....one 24 hour cycle, one ocillation of a rubidium atom, or one rotation around the galactic core????????We puny humans just can't conceive ...yet...the scope of such things, so until then..."i'm with you fellers"....lol....neither side is right or wrong Reply

| 0 minutes ago

Ptoadstool
Feb 22, 09 8:57 AM CST

It sounds to me like warmed-over "watchmaker" logic that the ID apologists have been using for years. Reply

| 0 minutes ago

Reader9713228
Feb 22, 09 9:39 AM CST

I say let's ask Jane Goodall what her opinion is in this matter. I see no evolution present in mental processes here. These are the same arguments Darwin faced in his time. Yawn. Guess our brains haven't evolved too much in 100 years. Maybe the shape of our heads holds the key to our intelligence! Reply

| 0 minutes ago

Forderon
Feb 22, 09 10:24 AM CST

The most humble thing a person can do is to say, "I don't know". Anyone who believes so certainly in something without knowing a damn thing about it, is certifiably insane. Personally, I'd rather side with the guys who say "I don't know", they actually try to be rational, they think, and they use science to find answers. That to me is a better option than assuming that only an invisible guy in the air could make our universe because it's so beautiful. Oh btw, the universe and certainly not our planet aren't as beautiful as people think. If there is a god, he's really doing a shitty job. Reply

| 0 minutes ago

SPH
Feb 22, 09 10:58 AM CST

Darwin's theory was "Natural Selection" not evolution...Evolution is an observable fact and can be demonstrated both in the laboratory and the greater world...It is further a reasonable assumption that the mechanism of evolution (Natural Selection) has been in place throughout the history of life..... Reply

| 0 minutes ago

Caps
Feb 22, 09 11:21 AM CST

Let me put it this way, I would rather believe there is a God, then find out later there was'nt. Than to believe there wasn't a God and find out later. Think about this.... Reply

IN RESPONSE:

airron14
Feb 22, 09 12:38 PM CST

I see, so this is all a game to you. You base your opinions off a juvenile belief that if there is a god, it would reward you for believing in it.

IN RESPONSE:

woody66
Feb 22, 09 1:01 PM CST

So it's come down to which side of the bet you want to be on to save yor ass ? It's not really about your ass or mine I'm afraid..........

IN RESPONSE:

Forderon
Feb 22, 09 1:04 PM CST

Caps, that kind of logic is just lazy, insane, and dangerous all in one. It's scary to think that we have for thousands of years passed down a lie like that just to keep people in line. God and religion have been used as tools of war, hate, and oppression/suppression forever and we will not progress as a human race unless with get that BS out of our lives and embrace common sense and science.

| 0 minutes ago

Caps
Feb 22, 09 5:15 PM CST

Forderon, you can believe whatever you like, but do not criticize me for what I believe. I hope that the end of your life you will find that there is life after death. And Airron14 you are just a great big nut, ready to fall. And you Woody it is your ass that will find out that there is a God, but I am afraid it will be to late. God Help all of you........... Reply

| 0 minutes ago

Lula
Feb 22, 09 5:31 PM CST

Airon16, woody66, and Forderon, I agree with Caps. You can believe whatever you want to, that is your choice, but do not criticize us. Your are so far out of base, the devil could not get to you. At least that is what you think. Well I say think again when your life is ended, all I can say is God be merciful, because you will need his mercy. Reply

IN RESPONSE:

woody66
Feb 22, 09 10:10 PM CST

Lula, I wasn't criticizing Caps' belief or lack of belief in God or Intelligent Design. I was commenting on his/her rationale; the apparent statement that he/she wanted to be right "just in case" there was a God. This seems a rather calculated approach to a bet, rather than a belief........that the bet is assymmetric and it doesn't pay to bet against a God. who might punish you if you were wrong...kinda like buying an insurance policy. I still find it curious and would like to hear more. Is that why you believe in your God ? Out of fear of retribution ?

| 0 minutes ago

LeftMiddleRight
Feb 22, 09 5:33 PM CST

What we all have in common here (as I see it) is one thing. Our belief system. We all need to have answers to the unknown. Some of us do it with science (atheists). Some with God (believers). And some with a combination of both (agnostics). This is what we all have in common...a belief system that's makes sense of the world, regardless of whether we're right or wrong, or kind of right or kind of wrong... Life's tough for all of us, to a greater or lesser degree. A lot of us, I believe, were raised believing in God or a God, and for some of us that belief didn't work (some were born atheists also). So in order to feel as secure as we can, we looked for alternatives...science, a less powerful God (I capitalize the "G" out of respect for their belief) and so on. My belief is that I don't believe anything or anyone created all of this. That works for me. With that belief, I'm now free to look into science and psychology to make sense of the world and how it pertains to me. I respect anyone's belief as long as it's not shoved in my face. When they start to shove, I give myself permission to shove back. I posted on this topic because, in a sense, it was trying to say what I disagreed with. So I felt comfortable enough to shove back. Reply

IN RESPONSE:

Caps
Feb 22, 09 7:58 PM CST

LMR, I wasn't trying to shove my belief down your throat. I do bellieve in a God. I was only stating my belief. If you don't that's your business.

IN RESPONSE:

LeftMiddleRight
Feb 22, 09 9:22 PM CST

Caps, I don't have any problem with your post. You're cool. I respect your belief. Your belief is just as important as mine.

| 0 minutes ago

Forderon
Feb 22, 09 6:52 PM CST

Thank you Caps and Lula for the typical ignorant and defensive response. You say "god help you". Well I hope he doesn't because he's kinda been sucking at his job since the beginning of time if he does exist. What people need to understand is that believing and knowing are two very different realms. It's not necessarily bad to BELIEVE in a god, but to pretend to KNOW is absolutely insane and arrogant. Humble people would agree that no one could possible know. And humble rational people would agree that it's impossible to know, but from what we DO know, by using science, there can't possible by a god. That makes sense to me. Also, our beliefs inform our actions, they make us who we are. Thus, I don't think it's particularly healthy for human beings to believe in fairy tales and then live their lives as such. Reply

IN RESPONSE:

Caps
Feb 22, 09 8:06 PM CST

Forderon. As I stated above to LMR, I wasn't trying to cram anything down your throat either, I was only stating I believe in God. I do not appreciate you calling me ignorant tho, maybe in my opinion you are the ignorant one. If you think God is a fairy tale, then in my opinion you are ignorant Whatever you believe is your business....but don't call someone you do not agree with insane and arrogant..........

| 0 minutes ago

anchower
Feb 22, 09 8:52 PM CST

Dude's brain functions independent of oxygen, is the problem. Reply

| 0 minutes ago

woody66
Feb 22, 09 10:14 PM CST

The huomorous thing is that language limits the discussion here. Capturing the infinite and our feelings about it is like capturing a river in a bucket. You think you have it but all you've got is water. Reply

| 0 minutes ago

Lula
Feb 22, 09 10:32 PM CST

Cap, I was going to post a comment, but I think you said it like it should be said. Thanks Caps. Reply

| 0 minutes ago

Forderon
Feb 22, 09 11:16 PM CST

The word "ignorant" in that context was used to convey that no one can possibly KNOW there's a god. The definition of ignorant is someone who lacks knowledge or information about something. It's only a negative word if you take it that way. Again, don't take it the wrong way, but it is what it is. Reply

| 0 minutes ago

LeftMiddleRight
Feb 22, 09 11:49 PM CST

Good God, I'm tired, I'm going to bed. Reply

IN RESPONSE:

Forderon
Feb 23, 09 12:09 AM CST

Lol, well played sir

| 0 minutes ago

woody66
Feb 23, 09 4:08 AM CST

I'm gratified that after 37 blogs, no one has denied that evolution is a sound scientific tenet (the subject of the original article) . Much toing and froing on views of God but at least no one has had a run at Darwinism / evolution. .............. Reply

| 0 minutes ago

Forderon
Feb 23, 09 10:33 AM CST

Well because evolution is a fact, that's comforting to me that I believe in something that exists. And no it's not OK for other people to believe in fairy tales just because they have the right. Humans have a great stake in their fellow humans not being insane. Reply

IN RESPONSE:

Caps
Feb 23, 09 12:47 PM CST

You are the insane one, Forderon.

IN RESPONSE:

Forderon
Feb 23, 09 1:12 PM CST

OK, good one

| 0 minutes ago

LeftMiddleRight
Feb 24, 09 12:56 AM CST

I think evolution is what some really smart scientists created from facts to make people who don't know the facts feel queasy. Therefore I'm a person who doesn't believe in evolution because it uses facts to support the hard evidence for which I have no use for. Facts are bad, even though I don't have any hard evidence to support my claim. But just the mention of the word facts should bring a little credence to my magical belief. Thank you. Now back to our regularly scheduled program. Reply

IN RESPONSE:

LeftMiddleRight
Feb 24, 09 1:00 AM CST

I disagree.

| 0 minutes ago

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Darwin Skeptics Separate Mind From Gray Matter