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FRIDAY, NOVEMBER 27, 2009

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NEXT STOP, REALITY TV (MAYBE)

Va. Socialites Crashed
Obama's State Dinner

And, yes, Tareq and Michaele Salahi want reality-TV turn

Nov 25, 09 9:29 PM CST
Racist Image of Michelle Obama Taken Down

Blog site removes it, not Google, then issues apology

Nov 25, 09 2:07 PM CST
PROFILE

Biden the
Second Most
Powerful
Vice Prez

He's scaling back from Cheney, but a major player in his own right

Nov 26, 09 12:47 PM CST
Worst Modern VP Picks

Don't be so quick to judge Palin

Nov 26, 09 11:52 AM CST
Blair Knew Iraq Had No WMD
10 Days Before War Began

Intelligence ignored, British panel told

Nov 25, 09 8:16 PM CST
FACEBOOK DOESN'T LIE, RIGHT?

Party-Crashers Got Close
to Obamas Before

Photos show them in inaugural box; Secret Service admits mistake

Nov 26, 09 7:28 PM CST
Google Issues Disclaimer
Over Racist Michelle Image

But company won't
pull doctored photo

Nov 24, 09 12:28 PM CST
analysis

Kid Lit Goes Political

Children's books get hyper-partisan

Nov 26, 09 4:33 AM CST
White House Backs Senate On 'Cadillac' Health Tax

Advisers outline cost control measures for health plan

Nov 26, 09 8:48 AM CST
Clintons Strive to Avoid Conflict of Interest Claims

Pair lead separate lives focusing on same issues

Nov 26, 09 9:20 AM CST
MALKIN GETS FESTIVE

This Year's Top Liberal Turkeys

Stimulus, President O-bow-ma get top billing

Nov 25, 09 8:01 PM CST
Bachmann, Palin
to Address
Tea Party
Convention

Nashville to host ultra-conservative gathering February

Nov 25, 09 4:34 PM CST
UK Weighs
Super-Tough
Bank Bonus Laws

Banks to be ordered to reveal numbers of millionaire staff

Nov 26, 09 9:03 AM CST

|NEXT STORY »

OPINION

Current Care Kills More Than 'Army of Death Panels'

System 'takes lives and breaks apart families'

By Matt Cantor| Posted Aug 30, 09 8:09 AM CDT|

(Newser) – Despite screeches that a government-run health care program will bump people into an early grave, "it’s a good bet that our existing dysfunctional health system knocks off far more people than an army of ‘death panels’ could, even if they did exist," writes Nicholas Kristof in the New York Times. The current system allows 18,000 “unnecessary deaths” yearly among the uninsured, a study found. That's one person every half hour.

The system also rips apart families with overwhelming medical costs, Kristof notes. He tells the story of a woman whose husband was diagnosed with early-onset dementia, which threatened a devastating “financial toll” on the family. A social worker and attorney suggested she divorce her husband, which she did, though she continues to care for him. The system “twists people like pretzels,” said the woman. A new study has found that 62% of US bankruptcies are tied to health costs.

[Images (2)]

[Quotes (1)]

President Barack Obama listens to a question during the Organizing for America National Health Care Forum at the Democratic National Committee headquarters in Washington earlier this month. (AP Photo/Alex Brandon)

Senate Finance Committee Chairman Sen. Max Baucus, D-Mont. talks after lunch with President Obama and other Democratic senators early this month. (AP Photo/J. Scott Applewhite)

« Prev« Prev | Next »Next » Slideshow

We already know how to prod families into divorce and take a life unnecessarily every 30 minutes—all we need to do is reject reform and stick with exactly what we have. - Nicholas Kristof

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93 comments

VIEWING:

nick
Aug 30, 09 8:49 AM CDT

Oh, so true. Wake up, Republicans and blue-dog Democrats: support affordable health care for all. Reply

+15

IN RESPONSE:

Reader64481089
Aug 30, 09 9:12 AM CDT

I have ot posted much since the death of my wife, but on this one I must totally agree. The "Death Panels" the Insurance Providers" now use killed my wife and thousands of people will die this year alone due to the present system. You may think you have the very best policy but you are fooling yourself, if and when catastrophic medical problems strike then your provider will allow you to die instead of what you have paid them for years to do....My wife is a perfect example....she died so they could maintain profits

+18

IN RESPONSE:

truthBtold
Aug 30, 09 11:25 AM CDT

Americans should embrace health care for all. A great country looks after its own.

+11

IN RESPONSE:

logothete
Aug 30, 09 11:37 AM CDT

Nick, i don't think they care. And reader, sorry for what you went through - it strikes home for me. Three years ago, we were paying $12400 a year for a policy to cover my wife and 2 kids ( I was getting the same coverage for $2000 through Medicare). My wife developed a couple of clots which went directly to her lungs - the use of birth control pills was at the root of it. The insurance co. cancelled her coverage - "Pre-existing condition." I take it she should have known that birth control pills would do that to her.

IN RESPONSE:

Lula
Aug 30, 09 6:26 PM CDT

Welcome back Reader64481089.

IN RESPONSE:

LiberalJesus
Aug 30, 09 9:06 PM CDT

My condolences to you Reader. I am sure there are many conservative republicans who also have lost loved ones due to insurance denials. Unfortunately they hate the thought that we liberals are right about healthcare, as we were about Social Security and Medicare and therefore would rather be screwed over by their insurance company and lose a loved one than to ever admit to themselves that all they have been led to believe, all the lies that right wing radio and their party has sold them has left them worse off than they would have been under liberal policies. Why they shut their eyes to two wars that will cost more than 10 years of a single pay health system is just mind numbing. And to all you who are totally against socialism, guess what, it's all over the place. It's in your libraries and fire departments, it's in your water treatment plants and schools and colleges, it's in your food and drug safety controls and the Center for Disease Control. It's Social Security and Medicare, it's the armed forces and the Parks and Forestry Service. Need I go on? How much longer before you decide that Americans deserve a break instead of the parasitic corporate insurances bosses who decide who lives or dies. Elections have consequences and you republicans act like your opinion matters..it doesnt! Just like the Democrats were shut out under Bush, or have you forgotten how awful the republicans treated the Democrats...at least President Obama and the Democrats have made a good faith effort to include republicans and all you've done is spit in our faces. Shame on you! Liberals would have been arrested on the spot had they ever shown up at a Bush rally with a gun...but remember, you set the tone for the next time a republican takes the WH, and I can assure you liberals just might be better stocked in the armaments area than you. The lower you set the bar, the lower it can be used against you. I fully support those who do not want to be a part of this nation be free to set up your own redneck states, or country where religion reins over facts, where fear is dominate over common sense and civility and where he who has the most money makes all the rules. Where ignorance is bliss and sickness is treated with tree bark, magic potions and prayer...good luck with that!

IN RESPONSE:

Fondue
Aug 30, 09 8:57 AM CDT

Facts are mean aren't they. This is the link from the article, do your own clicking next time: http://download.journals.elsevierhealth.com/pdfs/journals/0002-9343/PIIS0002934309004045.pdf

+15

IN RESPONSE:

doingtherightthing
Aug 30, 09 1:10 PM CDT

Savagefan.....agreed......going bankrupt is losuy loans, lost jobs, credit cards and overtaxation. You can homestead your pproperty to protect your house from creditors except for bank loans. If you read credit applications they ask this question. if you have a homestead on your property answer yes or no.....losing your home to health costs is miminal at best......the trolls just don't get it, they're stupid leftwingnuts.......

-5

IN RESPONSE:

logothete
Aug 30, 09 1:26 PM CDT

Wronthang, read the friggin' article - who's talking about "losing your home", homestead or no homestead? The subject is bankruptcy. I know it's too much to get you to open your tiny mind, but at least open your eyes and learn how to read - it's a valuable skill.

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NewserScooter
Aug 30, 09 9:19 AM CDT

Thanks for the link Fondue. The article basically says that the half of the population that responded to a self administered questioner that medical bills were one of the creditors on their list. MOST of the bankrupt were from homes they could not afford, that went upside down. Despite the final line in the summary that states 62% were tied, they ment included medical debt, only 32% were felt to be primarily medical. So we can forget health care reform and start buying everyone a government home first, since that is the main cause of the bankruptcies. The source is weak btw, the AJM is not considered a strong journal. Reply

-9

IN RESPONSE:

JaneMP
Aug 30, 09 9:25 AM CDT

Newser--did we look at the same article? THis article stated that medical bills were a huge reason for bankruptcy. Check these numbers: Debtor said medical bills were reason for bankruptcy 29.0% Medical bills $5000 or 10% of annual family income 34.7% Mortgaged home to pay medical bills 5.7% Medical bill problems (any of above 3) 57.1% Debtor or spouse lost 2 weeks of income due to illness or became completely disabled 38.2% Debtor or spouse lost 2 weeks of income to care for ill family member 6.8% Income loss due to illness (either of above 2) 40.3% Debtor said medical problem of self or spouse was reason for bankruptcy 32.1% Debtor said medical problem of other family member was reason for bankruptcy 10.8% Any of above 62.1% *Percentage based on recent homeowners rather than all debtors.

+12

IN RESPONSE:

logothete
Aug 30, 09 10:05 AM CDT

Um, Nooser, please give me a citation from the study that states that "MOST of the bankrupt were from homes they could not afford, that went upside down." Tried, couldn't find it. Closest I came were statements about those who'd mortgaged their homes to pay medical debts. Enlighten me, do. And, even if we bow to the superior wisdom you have displayed in your biased analysis of this "weak" source, ONLY 32% were due to medical debt primarily, without other major complicating factors. ONLY? That's nearly one-third of the bankrupt population. And, leaving percentages aside for the moment, the average out of pocket medical expense ( which does NOT include insurance premiums) for all respondents with even a tinge of medicalness (like that word!) about their bankruptcies was $17,943. That's one hell of a lot of bucks. Seems like we're not getting much for our insurance bucks these days.

+12

IN RESPONSE:

Fondue
Aug 30, 09 10:26 AM CDT

Newser, I am pretty sure they meant what they published. Exactly how is the AJM not a strong journal? What medical journal/publication is better and why?

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NewserScooter
Aug 30, 09 9:21 AM CDT

The logical consideration of this article is that once we have gov't healthcare, the main cause of bankruptcy will be taxes owed to the federal gov't. I bet everyone will be much happier fighting the gov't instead of some local hospital for debt relief. Reply

-8

IN RESPONSE:

Newser001
Aug 30, 09 10:02 AM CDT

You can't file bankruptcy on taxes owed the government. Get your facts straight.

IN RESPONSE:

Fondue
Aug 30, 09 10:28 AM CDT

It seems every new post by NewserScooter reveals that he is a fraud.

IN RESPONSE:

NewserScooter
Aug 30, 09 11:44 AM CDT

Well that is esp. nasty Fondue. What the hell do you mean fraud? There is strong biases in many medical journals. The New England Journal is known for twisting research to fit editorial goals. One instance I cite is that when I was part of the writing group for the "STRESS" trial, showing the valitidy of stents in reducing restenosis, the NEJM editorial board, esp Dr. Grossman, who at the time was on Hillary's comm. wanted us to change the 'results' to point out the increased cost of the stents. The study in fact had NO economic data and could not support of defeat that prop. It was ess. a political piece to support a bias in health care against more expensive (possibly) technology. Its process like that that weakens a journal from being a science journal to a political tool. And I am most certainly not a fraud. And I read the article you posted!

-5

IN RESPONSE:

Newser001
Aug 30, 09 12:29 PM CDT

What about bankruptcy and taxes? As with most of your dribble, you make it up as you go; atypical for a 23 year old juvenile. You're a fraud, a cheat and a lier.

IN RESPONSE:

logothete
Aug 30, 09 1:16 PM CDT

So NEJMA is biased, and so is AJM - how about JAMA? or Lancet? Your definition of bias is obviously "Doesn't agree with my preconceptions." And if you have, in fact, REALLY read the article and can still come up with your "conclusions," it means you're either a fraud or a piss-poor researcher. Since your posts seem to be a mix of almost fact, bias, poor spelling, poor grammar and basic incoherence, I vote for the former,

IN RESPONSE:

Fondue
Aug 30, 09 2:20 PM CDT

@ NewserScooter, fraud: One who assumes a false pose; an impostor.

| 0 minutes ago

Derni
Aug 30, 09 10:19 AM CDT

you are right on..if people knew how many families have no $$$ and have split over a catastrophic health care issue-becaasue they were dropped or didn't have enough insurance they would vote for REFORM-we better change the status quo now-and I know how hard that can be-or we will PAY in 4-5 years.This is the insurance comapnies way of causing negative backlash-remember 1993?? the insuran ce companies paid out big money to stop reform-to both Rep and Dem and to people so they would protest.. people should read the histroy on the issue and read how much money insurance companies are pumping into defeating this proposal. Reply

| 0 minutes ago

Maxcat
Aug 30, 09 11:35 AM CDT

I live in the UK and we find it really difficult to understand the furore over this, you would be hard pressed to find a Brit who thinks the NHS is a bad thing. What people in the US don't realise is that in the UK we all pay a monthly fee in national insurance if we are working which funds the NHS. I think I pay about £90 a month. I don't really use the NHS as I'm young and healthy but when I get old or sick it will be there so I'm glad to pay for it. My Mum and Dad paid into it all their lives, now they're having to use it as my Dad has MS and my Mum's had cancer twice. My Mum was sent to a specialist cancer hospital the Royal Marsden and they were amazing. It was so clean you could eat your dinner of the floor, the staff were wonderful and every step of the way she had a say in her own treatment. I can't express how grateful I am to them. The NHS provides services such as if an older person has a stroke or a fall they will sent out nurses and physios out to their home to rehabilitate them to they can walk again and do household tasks so they can stay home instead of having to go into hospital. Where I live there is a specialist children's hosptal and yet another specialist cancer hospital. And I don't mind paying £90 a month for that. In fact I'm rather proud of it. It's not often we have something to be proud of in this hole of a country but the NHS is one thing we can be proud of. Reply

+10

IN RESPONSE:

Corona_Kinq
Aug 30, 09 11:39 AM CDT

Thank you for your comment Maxcat, but keep in mind many Americans aren't interested in real-world experiences or facts, since it doesn't already support their preconceived notions about health care. They'd much rather to hear about NHS from an American talk show looking to get ratings.

IN RESPONSE:

Corona_Kinq
Aug 30, 09 11:41 AM CDT

oops *like to hear.

IN RESPONSE:

logothete
Aug 30, 09 11:44 AM CDT

Maxcat - we get the same story from Canadians. Only the right-wing paranoids fear universal healthcare, and they seem to be shouting very loudly today. Be prepared - if they follow their usual pattern, you'll be attacked for being a foreigner. Thanks for posting a drop of sanity.

IN RESPONSE:

Fondue
Aug 30, 09 2:32 PM CDT

As far as the cost is concerned, why don't we do what these other countries are doing? I wouldn't mind paying the way they do in the UK. It works out to about $1758 annually.

| 0 minutes ago

NewserScooter
Aug 30, 09 11:45 AM CDT

no corona I hear about it from patients who are running away from it. Of course they could be the only exceptions. Reply

-5

IN RESPONSE:

Newser001
Aug 30, 09 12:26 PM CDT

It's quite apparent and clearly substantiated - You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

IN RESPONSE:

WallyEFunk
Aug 30, 09 12:34 PM CDT

PLEASE tell ,more of Ur info from Patients ,Do U only hear from the "exception " ones. Hear other stories I trust... The twists U make of facts are interesting. Ur a doctor ,health care worker. Grade 12 graduate ,hear voices?

IN RESPONSE:

logothete
Aug 30, 09 1:19 PM CDT

They run away , all the way across the Atlantic, to seek shelter and solace in your strong arms? How touching - and what a lie!

IN RESPONSE:

Fondue
Aug 30, 09 2:25 PM CDT

This is what I'm talking about - and everyone else. You make a claim such as Canadians are coming to the US for healthcare as though they are afraid in order to scare US citizens about the Canadian system. I call you a fraud because your profile says you are in TX. Why a Canadian citizen would go all the way to TX has got to be a blatant lie. Let us know when entire provinces are flocking to TX okay?

IN RESPONSE:

NewserScooter
Aug 30, 09 10:35 PM CDT

And btw Fondue, my neighbor who is a Neurologist has patients that fly in to see him from England and throughout Europe. Most just want his expertise, as opposed to just running from the NHS. However getting a deep brain stimulator is apparently difficult there for some reason. I don't know maybe the gov't there doesn't want to pay for it.

-2

IN RESPONSE:

Fondue
Aug 31, 09 8:37 AM CDT

Scooter, England is a nation of 53.4 million. Until your neighbor is complain and I see news reports that it's become a problem, I maintain that it is a very small number of Brits that can afford to make such a trip. And, apparently, the principles and mechanisms of DBS seem uncertain, and experimental for the time being. Your rhetoric seems to insinuate that a brain pacemaker is common when in fact it is not. With a cost of $50-60K for implantation and batteries that have to be replaced every 2 years at $10-20K it's no wonder this is not as common as say stents, and is usually not covered even by insurance. Oh, then there's the complications, of which you seem unfamiliar. Ask your neighbor about those.

IN RESPONSE:

Maxcat
Aug 31, 09 4:02 PM CDT

DBS is still in clinical trials in England Scooter, it won't be available generally until it's been passed as safe.

IN RESPONSE:

Maxcat
Aug 31, 09 4:08 PM CDT

Actually Fondue, we're a nation of 61 million. Scooter's neighbour must be very, very busy.

| 0 minutes ago

Maxcat
Aug 30, 09 12:24 PM CDT

NewserScooter, who do you know that was running away from the NHS and why? Reply

IN RESPONSE:

NewserScooter
Aug 30, 09 11:40 PM CDT

Mostly folks needing Bypass surgery, but thats the area I work in. Have seen folks coming here for deep brain stimulation as well. There are other procedures that are limited or have waiting periods in Canada and Europe. Of course we already are the gov't health care system for Mexico.

| 0 minutes ago

godawgs
Aug 30, 09 12:28 PM CDT

the number sited in the study where it states taht 39% of the people filled for bankruptcy listed medical as the primary reason is high, but they listed as only having 5000 in medical bills. That is the number that gets me. Any thoughts on that? I don't think that when health care gets passed the number of bankruptcies are going to go down, just the primary reason will change. Reply

IN RESPONSE:

logothete
Aug 30, 09 1:06 PM CDT

Godawgs, that's AT LEAST $5000 in medical bills. Average was in fact nearly $18,000 in unreimbursed medical. And of course the primary reason will change - if you get rid of one reson, the next below it just notches up one level. But so what?

IN RESPONSE:

godawgs
Aug 30, 09 1:38 PM CDT

@logo thanks for the average. i just saw the minimum of 5000. so do you think that when we run into another reason that people are filing bankruptcy such as credit card debt that the government should step in and take care of that as well?

-2

IN RESPONSE:

logothete
Aug 30, 09 1:46 PM CDT

No godawgs, I don't - but you run credit card debt at your choice, you don't get sick by choice. That's not to say that we, as a country, shouldn't address the usury that lies at the base of most credit card debt - 23% interest, for God's sake! But that's another story for another time. Let's stay focused on this one.

IN RESPONSE:

godawgs
Aug 30, 09 2:23 PM CDT

@logo agree with most of what you said unless your illness is lifestyle related then you do it by choice (smokers, drinkers, stunt men.....)

IN RESPONSE:

WallyEFunk
Aug 30, 09 3:42 PM CDT

Sorry godawgs. seems like I'm picking on U. So smokers , drinkers. What about overweight (FYI In Alberta ,Canada ,Dr's are getting paid extra for the extra time it takes to work on them.weird.) And that's a big problem from what I understand. how about diabites, PPL that motorbike, skydive. PPl that there kid MIGHT have a birth defect because of there parents genome. there not covered? I don't believe in God ,but I'm a Christian. So I know where Ur coming from ,what do U believe? Free enterprise only, all for one ,one for me. Side note ...23 % interent is because U can't afford health. Which makes it harder to live.Day to day. In Canada we have a max set so it's not like load sharking. in the US it's called free enterprise. And still corporate politians get elected. Dumb ?

| 0 minutes ago

Maxcat
Aug 30, 09 12:32 PM CDT

Newser001, are you saying people running away from the NHS is apparent and sustained? I'm confused. If it is substantiated where can I find info on it, I'm genuinely curious. Reply

IN RESPONSE:

Newser001
Aug 30, 09 1:30 PM CDT

No, I'm not saying, 'people running away from the NHS', Scooter is, and it is beyond the obvious, he doesn't know what he speaks of. I've lived in the UK, Ireland, Denmark, France, Japan... And have received care in each one. Absolutely no complaints experienced. I also served my country and received medical serves, as well (the military services have there own MHS / NHS). No one is running away from NHS in these countries or in the service - That's unless you have copious amounts of money and wish to do otherwise... No system is absolutely perfect, but the one we have now, right here in America is seriously flawed - Based on shareholders and profits - Life isn't a commodity - Its a right and it is simply despicable to think we have those who see otherwise. People from around the world are watching this nonsensical debate and wondering what the hell is wrong with us, as there is nothing truly wrong with NHS. A NHS plan will put spiraling costs into check - To do nothing is inexcusable.

IN RESPONSE:

Maxcat
Aug 30, 09 1:43 PM CDT

That's true Newser001, I don't understand how people can give money to live aid etc when their are people on their own doorstep dying from lack of care. I'm not a wooly liberal, I'm generally quite right wing. I have a lot of respect for America and it's political system but in this case I can't understand why people in the US think like this. It's not free healthcare, we all pay for it and we do have a system called 'choose and book' which allows you to choose your hospital and consultant if you need treatment. Unfortunately the 'choose and book' system has gone belly up, no-one used it because they trust their local hospitals and doctors so they don't want to go elsewhere.

| 0 minutes ago

Maxcat
Aug 30, 09 12:57 PM CDT

No response, read into that what you will but I have never, ever heard of anybody running away from the NHS unless it was to another country so they could buy organs for transplant which is not allowed here. Reply

IN RESPONSE:

Newser001
Aug 30, 09 1:40 PM CDT

Chill, Maxcat! Allow a person to respond in due time... BTW, you obviously misinterpreted my statement(s) as I'm totally committed to NHS adoption (read my aforementioned, again pls).

IN RESPONSE:

Maxcat
Aug 30, 09 1:45 PM CDT

Soorry! I was asking Newscooter initially and he hasn't responded. I'm disappointed about that because I really wanted to know who these people running away from the NHS are, I don't know anything about it so he could have enlightened me.

IN RESPONSE:

Newser001
Aug 30, 09 1:57 PM CDT

He's very young and uniformed - As with most of the GOP on this issue. Money is what motivates these people, not their conscious our duty to mankind.

IN RESPONSE:

NewserScooter
Aug 30, 09 9:56 PM CDT

Maxcat I am a physcian, and Fondue, yes we get patients in Texas from Canada, as do the other hospitals I have trained in, worked at, and have associations with. Listen I am not going to try and teach a pig to sing, it only frustrates the pig and apparently thats true. You have a belief system or a religious trust in the gov't. I do not. I have watch gov't gather power, and when they do usually abuse it. The Us is not immune. I do not want to see this much power in the hands of the Gov't. You apparently do. I hope we don't have to meet in the camps!

-2

| 0 minutes ago

Leppy
Aug 30, 09 1:17 PM CDT

I'm a Canadian, I read these comments and I am horrified. Do not let these profit seekers tell you any lies about death panels or any other such nonsense. In Canada we go to the Dr' of our choice , when we need to, and there is no huge wait. we love our single pay system it is no more socialist than the fire department or police. We like it, if we didn't it would be gone. You may have seen that Canadian woman that the republicans have been parading around as an example of socialist medicines failures, She does not have cancer, she has a benign cyst that can be removed at any time, she chose not to wait 3-6 months and opted to instead pay 100k to get it removed in the states.If it were a malignant tumor it would have been taken care of immediately. Reply

IN RESPONSE:

logothete
Aug 30, 09 1:40 PM CDT

Thanks, Leppy. One of the things we don't see mentioned is the number of early retirees who move to Canada and risk the winters in order to get themselves into a provincial health plan. Of course a contributing factor used to be that their US pensions looked so large in Canadian dollars - used to be, that is!

IN RESPONSE:

godawgs
Aug 30, 09 1:41 PM CDT

@leppy here is an article from the CBC in 2007, sorry i couldn't find anythng more recent. It shows that Canadians satisfaction with your health care system is going down. Do you have anything to the contrary? http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2007/08/20/cma-healthcare.html

IN RESPONSE:

WallyEFunk
Aug 30, 09 1:44 PM CDT

Well said... The lies they pass on. Ignorance and lies is their only way, too creating fear. How can any of the nay sayers say there are NO needless deaths ,because it's wasn't profitable to treat some one. They have a high infint mortality, for a developed rich countr,.which they also ignore. and somehow they think of themselfs are Christians ? I hate to say it ,I hope it's them or their faimly that has to go threw such hardships.Just look at newscooter comments , waiting to U see jayster999 comments. he's a interesting one too. They both pass on such propoganda BS.

IN RESPONSE:

WallyEFunk
Aug 30, 09 2:00 PM CDT

Well godawgs. would U endorse and believe in a universal a health care system, if we find info that saids Canadian are happy with it? U don't believe any info that comes @ U now! And honestly Yes, like a system that ANYONE can use for free, abuse happens and bogs down. But emergencey priority, not dollars is the decieding factor, I trust U will end up with a system, that the rich can pay extra, and get faster service and help pay for the Universal one. (which I think really is also good ).

IN RESPONSE:

logothete
Aug 30, 09 2:00 PM CDT

Godawgs, thanks for the article. It appears that currently 62% of Canadians found their healthcare either Excellent (A) or Very Good (B) in 2007, and that was down from 69% in 2006. I'd love to know how many found their healthcare Good (C), but the article is silent on that. I'd consider those to be pretty impressive numbers; I'd love to see what patients say on this side of the border. I was amused that Canadians rated down healthcare access (on anything but an emergency basis) on nights and weekends - I wonder what they'd think of our situation down here?

IN RESPONSE:

godawgs
Aug 30, 09 2:26 PM CDT

@wally no that wouldn't be the deciding factor but apparently every Canadian that posts on these boards states that are no complaints about the Canadian health system and all of the people love it up there. Obviously that is not true, even though 62% is a pretty good number.

IN RESPONSE:

WallyEFunk
Aug 30, 09 2:44 PM CDT

Sorry gadawgs. Missed what I said. I'm Canadian. wifes been on long term disablity. took a number of MRI's ,specialists.ETC to track problems.( more then one .compounding ones) She has been on many websites looking for support and ALLOT of the US counterparts are getting no relief / help, cut off ,hit the max visits ETC,or deep in dept. We will always have complains.I found a DJ powers satifation rating of US.2009 Congrades .69-72 %. but doesn't add the ones with NONE, how can they rate it, they have none? U factor that in. And so why waste Ur my time if I showed 99 % Canadian satifaction , Ur mind is set all ready. FYI wife's an ER nurse. Sister-in-law and mother in law are Phyic. Nurses . One of three thinks they don't do enough. So proof Ur right about satifaction in Canada's health care? Satifaction doesn't ask .Have U ever NEVER had no health care, or a private HMO to compair too. OR have U every been turnered away, or had to decied about which fingers U can pay for to have re-attached, back to Ur body. U can't compair apples to no oranges. And took 2 months for a hip replacement. Good bad? It got done.......

IN RESPONSE:

NewserScooter
Aug 30, 09 10:01 PM CDT

But Fondue you want the biggest corp/ of all to take over. Think about it that way! Leppy talk to your docs. The ones who are told what stents, and other equipment they can use and when.

| 0 minutes ago

Maxcat
Aug 30, 09 1:49 PM CDT

Godawgs, if something exists there are always going to be people who bitch and moan about it. Do you realise in the UK you're not forced to use the NHS, a lot of people go private, and believe it or not the consultant they see will be exactly the same one someone on the NHS would see, they run part time private clinics along their NHS work. Reply

IN RESPONSE:

logothete
Aug 30, 09 2:02 PM CDT

You mean it's a public OPTION, Maxcat? Seems I've heard that somewhere before.

IN RESPONSE:

Newser001
Aug 30, 09 2:07 PM CDT

Nothing is perfect, but what we have here in America is unsustainable while very immoral. What we do have here is akin to the civil rights era (not to belittle it); everyone is entitled to life, with fair and equally accessible healthcare. It's estimated 43 million American go without healthcare, and I along with family and friends are all part of those statistics. To deny one's own citizen's to healthcare is tantamount to discrimination and treason.

-1

IN RESPONSE:

godawgs
Aug 30, 09 2:19 PM CDT

@maxcat for something that people are forced to use there are some things going on there too. The amount of complaints has gone up against NHS and there is weird story about cancer patients being put at the back of the queue for treatment so that the governmetn can reach some goal. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/5460788/Patients-with-suspected-cancer-forced-to-wait-so-NHS-targets-can-be-hit.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1584179/Number-of-complaints-against-the-NHS-soars.html

IN RESPONSE:

godawgs
Aug 30, 09 2:37 PM CDT

@newser you know that the 43 million has been debunkned before. don't try to over inflate the number of people that don't have health insurance. I agree that everyone should have it as well but it shouldn't be at the cost of the country. once they get the bill under control and make it deficit neutral as the president promised then it will be fine. http://www.factcheck.org/2009/06/the-real-uninsured/

IN RESPONSE:

logothete
Aug 30, 09 3:08 PM CDT

No, godawgs, it hasn't been debunked -it's been whittled away at on specious grounds by rightwing orators (take a million off here, and a million off there, and then there's a few million who don't really want health insurance - what crap!). The figure, as of the last census, was actually 47 million, and that's not counting the millions who have since lost their jobs in the Bush recession and will soon run out of COBRA benefits, if they haven't already. Today, the 47 million is an understatement.

IN RESPONSE:

WallyEFunk
Aug 30, 09 3:10 PM CDT

So godawg . So lets agree the numbers are greatly inflated,Sooooooo...? This help Ur thought.....So what's Ur plan or idea to"everyone should have it as well but it shouldn't be at the cost of the country" ? and Ur how did U work this out? doing both? having care, no cost to country. OK every buddy ,wait for his thoughts of something, government or the non profit (NOT) humanitian HMO's haven't thought of or done ...

IN RESPONSE:

logothete
Aug 30, 09 3:24 PM CDT

Sorry - 45.7 million, not 47. And the cited article concludes: "In short, it’s true that many of the 45.7 million "uninsured" could find coverage through existing government programs or pay for their own coverage if they chose. Some, perhaps 6 million, are illegal immigrants who would not receive coverage under any proposal now being considered. Do these amount to half the total, as former Sen. Thompson implied? That’s possible, but we judge that the available evidence doesn’t support that conclusion." Even if we accept Thompson's doubtful statement, that means that nearly one in ten legally resident Americans is unable to get or afford health insurance. That's disgusting. And as the article points out, both the Census and the SIPP study do NOT take into account the huge number who have since joined the ranks of the unemployed; 2207 had a 4.6% unemployment rate, the rate in June 2009 is 9.7%

IN RESPONSE:

Fondue
Aug 30, 09 3:54 PM CDT

Is this really only about people without coverage currently? What of the threat of losing coverage for whatever reason? The issue is the near monopoly insurance companies have and their "death panels". Get corporations out of my doctor's office and hospital.

-1

IN RESPONSE:

godawgs
Aug 30, 09 3:58 PM CDT

@wally well the President did say he wouldn't sign a health care bill into law that wasn't budget neutral. so that would cover everyone but not break the country. as of now the current plans are still in the red by about 240 billion dollars. so once congress gets that little bit taken care of we should be good to go.

IN RESPONSE:

godawgs
Aug 30, 09 4:09 PM CDT

@logo the number has been debunked. that is the total amount of people that haven't had insurance and one time or another during the year. there are not 47 million uninsured Americans. look i am for health care for everyone, just not a plan that is going to cost us more in the long run. the congress is rushing this through. they will have the power to pass this until at least November of next year without much of a fight so why rush? the bill isn't going to take place until 2013 regardless of its passed next week or next year.

IN RESPONSE:

WallyEFunk
Aug 30, 09 4:49 PM CDT

Well godawgs , I can't fight the numbers U have, 35-45 million not covered and will cost 270 billion to cover them?after having every one paying into a non profit setup. Do I add corporations taking profits out of the system or something. Or is it all just government waste? I really want no answers on that question.Mainly I want to know is it a thing of no new taxes? I had questions in above posts when U have time. Like Rome if Ur can't look after Urself , U should be dead?Is life that cheap to U in America? I Have No idea TRUE cost of health care up here. All our money goes into one pot.I hate that. My standard of life is the same . 320,000 house a 750 Sq ft shop. truck, car motorcycle, yearly vacations.ETC. And a freedom most don't have in Ameriaca. I can quit any job with out the thought or fear of lost medical coverage. honestly can U say the same? waiting for Ur thoughts for the above questions.

IN RESPONSE:

godawgs
Aug 31, 09 9:09 AM CDT

@walle it does kind of come down to no new taxes, again as were promised by the president during the election. I am for health care, I was in the Navy and had government run health care for 9 years, both of my kids were born under it. It can work, they just need to cut corners somewhere else. You can't just buy and buy without saving somewhere.

-1

| 0 minutes ago

Maxcat
Aug 30, 09 2:06 PM CDT

Where did you hear it before? Reply

IN RESPONSE:

logothete
Aug 30, 09 3:03 PM CDT

The Public Option is (still, I hope!) part of the Obama care plan - an optional form of health insurance sponsored by the government. Still not an NHS, but better than the mess we have.

| 0 minutes ago

Maxcat
Aug 30, 09 4:37 PM CDT

godawogs, the Telegraph is a national joke. The owner is in jail for fraud. Even your own attorney general wanted to indite him for racketeering, obstruction of justice, money laundering and illegal wire taps. His name is Conrad Black. Reply

| 0 minutes ago

Maxcat
Aug 30, 09 4:44 PM CDT

Don't get me wrong godawogs, I love the states. My husband is Irish and he has relatives who have gone over there and been really successful with the opportunities the US provides. The standard of living you have is second to none, but I still don't understand how you can begrudge the old and the sick help when you are living in comfort. Reply

| 0 minutes ago

Maxcat
Aug 30, 09 4:50 PM CDT

Sorry godawogs, that came out wrong, you're totally entitled to live in comfort. Reply

| 0 minutes ago

Maxcat
Aug 30, 09 4:51 PM CDT

I guess you could say that people would q Reply

| 0 minutes ago

Maxcat
Aug 30, 09 4:54 PM CDT

give up their jobs and not bother to work if they to get free healthcarel, I don't think that's true. Reply

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Maxcat
Aug 30, 09 5:49 PM CDT

Sorry, the worlds worst spelling evah! Reply

| 0 minutes ago

Maxcat
Aug 30, 09 6:33 PM CDT

Godawog, no one is forced to use the NHS, if they can afford to go private then they will if they want to. A lot of people choose to pay for private health insurance premiums through their salary. Reply

IN RESPONSE:

Fondue
Aug 30, 09 6:54 PM CDT

Damn the Old World has such a better system than the New. To be clear: the --system-- is better. If we combined our quality with a system focused on access, we would have a top notch healthcare system. And don't give me the line about it'll bankrupt the country - last I looked, England, Norway, France, Sweden et al have been around much much longer. Perhaps it is time to listen and learn from our elder nations.

IN RESPONSE:

godawgs
Aug 31, 09 9:05 AM CDT

i read that and I meant to say that in my earlier post. thank you for the insight into the British health care system.

IN RESPONSE:

godawgs
Aug 31, 09 9:06 AM CDT

@fondue their population size is also much smaller then ours, which makes it easier to have these types of systems in place.

| 0 minutes ago

Maxcat
Aug 30, 09 6:36 PM CDT

Whoops, what a rant. Didn't realise I'd been banging on about it that much. Reply

| 0 minutes ago

Maxcat
Aug 30, 09 8:17 PM CDT

Also godawgs, they are referring to people who walkin to A & E. That's accident and emergency, it's for people who have been in car crashes or have broken bones etc They probably would send them back to their GP because they need to prioritise the patient who are on the brink of death first. Anyway, A & E people aren't cancer specialists, if they go back to their GP they will refer them to a specialist. Reply

| 0 minutes ago

LiberalJesus
Aug 30, 09 9:44 PM CDT

How do we know this is more a liberal country than a conservative country...look at every Newser article and the "thumbs up" out number the "thumbs down" by an 8 to 1 margin on average.....just saying. And as to all those so-called huge numbers posted by Fox News and its all-star casts of numbnuts..let me put this into perspective. If over 120 million people voted in the election and only 10-12million watch Fox regularly then I'd say 110-112 million people dont give a damn what is on Fox news....just saying since right wing nuts are always hawking their fake news ratings. Get over it, we are getting healh care because thats what the country wants and elections are held for a reason...if not whats the point? Majority rules.....and lets not forget that Bush and Cheney gave America the finger when it took us into 2 wars based on lies. And you republicans had no problem with that...didnt see you out there protesting to save Americans soliders from dying for nothing but lies. We won the last round of elections. Stop acting like a bunch of cry baby pussies and deal with it like an adult. You lost...get over it! Its not our fault you are so easily duped and believe everything your leaders on the radio says..thats your shortcoming. Like you said back when the Bush-GOP-Iraq war broke out you told us liberals if we didnt like it.....too bad because majority rules....Well now its our turn, we're trying to help all Americans and you are being used by the gop, the radio big mouth idiots and by the insurance companies to act against your best interest. Why not shut off the radio for just one day and think about it.....think about the future and stop making this about left vs right, black vs white, christians vs muslims....you are missing the whole point....its the powerful rich vs the rest of us and as much as you may hate us, unless you're a millionaire or in the upper 10%, you are in the same boat as us and most likely, judging from the hatefilled comments directed at the President and liberals in general, are in far greater need of healthcare and more so, serious mental health care. Use your head....shut off the freaking radio and try using your head just once. Reply

IN RESPONSE:

NewserScooter
Aug 30, 09 9:58 PM CDT

There will be another election you know. 15 months and elections will have different consequences won't they!

-1

IN RESPONSE:

godawgs
Aug 31, 09 9:04 AM CDT

if you got to a right wing site these article and posts would be in the exact opposite order.

IN RESPONSE:

Reader65069154
Aug 31, 09 9:47 AM CDT

Couldn't be that the majority of the people who read and comment on this site are liberals, could it? Just saying..

| 0 minutes ago

Maxcat
Aug 31, 09 12:06 AM CDT

Newsscooter, I don't trust my government at all, but the NHS is a different kettle of fish. They're non-partisan and don't engage in politics. If you particularly want to check out a right wing politicians attitude to the NHS I suggest you google 'David Cameron' and 'Ivan'. Read a few articles on that and then come back and slag the NHS off. The Camerons could have afforded private care but they chose to go with the NHS because they could get the best treatnent withn the NHS. Reply

IN RESPONSE:

NewserScooter
Aug 31, 09 8:10 AM CDT

Thanks for the links, will have a look. My issue is not with NHS, but what the US will do with it. Canada and Europe have one thing the US doesn't have. The US military supplied protection. If they had to pay for their own protection, (of course England has more or a military then most of Europe) then we might afford this boondoggle too.

| 0 minutes ago

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White House Backs Senate On 'Cadillac' Health Tax

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