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129

Atheists Split Over How Mean to Be to Faithful

'New atheists' want to decry religion, not just promote secularism

By Kevin Spak| Posted Oct 19, 09 11:28 AM CDT|

(Newser) – Can a non-religion schism? Maybe that’s too dramatic a phrase, but there’s a rift growing between so-called “new atheists,” who favor an aggressive, mocking stance toward religion, and the old live-and-let-live kind. On “Blasphemy Day” last month, for example, new atheists were out in force, “de-baptizing” each other with hair dryers, and, in one case, debuting a painting entitled “Jesus Paints His Nails,” showing an effeminate Jesus polishing the nails driven through his hands.

“I think religion should be treated with ridicule, hatred, and contempt,” author Christopher Hitchens declared to a hooting crowd. Hitchens tells NPR that religion is “sinister, dangerous, and ridiculous,” given the violence it inspires. But the old guard isn’t so eager to insult the faithful. “I consider them atheist fundamentalists,” says the founder of the Center for Inquiry. “They’re anti-religious, they’re mean-spirited, unfortunately.”

[Images (2)]

[Videos (1)]

An image taken from a YouTube video celebrating Blasphemy Day.

A woman is 'debaptised' with a hair dryer for Blasphemy Day in this YouTube screenshot.

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A girl burns a bible for Blasphemy Day. (BornWithoutReligion)

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129 comments

VIEWING:

BleeBloo
Oct 19, 09 11:35 AM CDT

As an atheist, I agree that religion CAN BE "sinister dangerous and ridiculous," it can also be comforting to believers, and it's no more our place to tell believers that their religion is a lie than it is their place to tell us that we're going to hell. Reply

+34

IN RESPONSE:

tran_tor
Oct 19, 09 11:52 AM CDT

Very well said BleeBloo. Religion has long played and continues to play an important and positive role in our society. Sounds like a movement which endorses mean-spiritedness and hate as a mantra doesn't have too far to go to equal the sinister and dangerousness they oppose.

IN RESPONSE:

Wonka
Oct 19, 09 12:15 PM CDT

Ironic that the "new atheists" use many of the same tactics used by religions for centuries in an attempt to convince/convert people. It detracts from the legitimacy of their criticism.

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Thinker
Oct 19, 09 12:22 PM CDT

" ... new atheists,” who favor an aggressive, mocking stance toward religion ..." But, what's not to mock???

IN RESPONSE:

DJM420
Oct 19, 09 12:27 PM CDT

i guess im straight up old school. sure, some religions (more than most) are whacked out, some even rob in the plain of day. but i agree that some are a positive influence on many people, and that part cant be dogged. nothing wrong with (a) faith, really, its the pushy organized haters i cant resist mocking sometimes. i'm sorry.

+12

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Unaffiliated
Oct 19, 09 1:25 PM CDT

@Thinker, how about a church food pantry handing out food to dozens of families struggling to get by? Or providing resume building, a new suit, and job interview training for the homeless? Would you mock those acts?

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Spudsy
Oct 19, 09 3:06 PM CDT

Unaffiliated, those are good acts. But what portion of tax free money collected ends up performing those acts? And how much ends up attempting to influence government and politics? Today a Maryland archdiocese claimed bankruptcy to avoid paying out in sex abuse trials. The vatican has money problems? Right. I am okay with a tax break to church goers for the part of the donation that does these charitable act. I am not okay with the deduction for money that builds what is in effect a social club with meeting rooms, gymnasiums, even pools. Why don't non-church goers get a deduction for say, a health club membership that would get them these amenities? But it is not all about the money. I think what has pissed off the latest bunch of atheists is attempts to put religion into our laws and government. These attempts have increased dramatically over the last eight years. Live and let live is one thing. Live and control is another. Christians for the most part want a say in marriage laws, even for other religions and non-believers. Gay offends them. Wouldn't it be fair then if muslims and jews could control others eating habits? Pork offends them. I guess my point is that these actions and attitudes, while I may not agree with them, do not exist in a vacuum. And worldwide at this moment, you will find much more pain suffering and death being inflicted by the religious than any ridicule that atheists could equal.

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Unaffiliated
Oct 19, 09 4:06 PM CDT

That's a long list of grievances, Spudsy. Related to Martin Luther? Honestly, my church doesn't have a swimming pool or a gym. We don't advocate for one political party or another as a church. We welcome gays and don't try to "cure" them (we're open and affirming, and have gays and lesbians in church leadership positions). Heck, my denomination doesn't even have an official stance on abortion laws, so how's that for being apolitical? (And while you'll definitely find pro-choice advocates at our church on Sundays, the same can be said of Catholic churches and even Evangelical churches as well. We also have people who are pro-life, but as an organization, our church doesn't take sides. Personally, I'm against abortions of convenience, but I don't think it needs to be prohibited by law, definitely not at the national level.) Monetarily, we direct 10% of our general fund to outreach (supporting causes like the ones I listed above); the rest pays salaries (the vast majority of our salary budget is for the pastor, and she doesn't make that much), mortgage, and utilities. We also have special funds that are directed to outreach as well. In addition to donating money, folks in my congregation also donate lots of time to ministering to the poor and disenfranchised. I just want people to realize that, while there may be this Christian stereotype in America that does include many of the grievances that you listed, not all Christians and not all churches are like that.

IN RESPONSE:

Spudsy
Oct 19, 09 6:56 PM CDT

Unaffiliated, I commend your church on it's charitable acts. But I still don't think that the utilities or pay should be tax free. No other organization gets that and if a secular charity tried to pull off ratios of income vs giving like your average church, the IRS would roast them. But how many times have you heard an American criticize muslims because the moderates don't speak out louder than the fundamentalists? Same with your church against the louder forms of christianity. Perhaps the problem is our political system has become two parties which prefer to debate in black and white with no grey. The GOP takes the christians and caters to the very nuttiest of the bunch. And of course the media always likes to hop on the nutburgers too. Sensible religious people of all faiths have a serious PR problem. And now this story tries to give that same problem to the atheist.

IN RESPONSE:

Thinker
Oct 19, 09 7:25 PM CDT

@Unaffiliated "how about a church food pantry handing out food to dozens of families struggling to get by? Or providing resume building, a new suit, and job interview training for the homeless?" Unaffiliated, it is written, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8-9

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Swifty
Oct 19, 09 9:02 PM CDT

I can't agree with this passive "roll over and act cute" type of mentality while right wing religous zealots raise huge amounts of money to lobby congress for actions that violate our constitution -- pushing religion into the public domain, law, and schools. New Atheism is an important movement and no matter how bold it is equalizing the scale and pushing back appropriately.

IN RESPONSE:

jeebus
Oct 20, 09 4:12 AM CDT

The problem with religion, is that it tries to legitimize the scribblings of superstitious cavemen, while trying to deligitimize common sense and logic.

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Unaffiliated
Oct 20, 09 9:55 AM CDT

@Thinker, I didn't ask whether you thought acts of service would get one to heaven. I asked if you thought if acts of service were worthy of being mocked. It certainly seems like you have studied Christianity before rejecting it, which I find commendable, because many reject religion without actually looking at what it means to do so. But I am confused by your rejection of all things religion, and then you use scripture to attack me.

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Thinker
Oct 20, 09 5:14 PM CDT

@Unaffiliated, those aren't my thoughts, those are the words of YOUR bible. And they are right in this case. You do use your words to boast of works. Are you also going to boast of the thousands of children in Nigeria being killed today as witches in the name of Christianity? Do those count as good works in your book?

-1

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mookiemu
Oct 24, 09 12:01 AM CDT

Problem is that religious evangelicals don't care about offending us nor do they care about our beliefs. they are not only mean spirited, they are willing to go on the attack. Sometimes the only way to rise above the noise is to say some unpleasant things. In the civil rights movement, Martin's peaceful protests were ineffective until Malcolm X's people started to arm themselves and protect themselves by "any means necessary". For every person who believes that they shouldn't offend our reli-gilous brothers and sisters, there needs to be a Richard Dawkins type of person who will show them how silly the fairy tale is.

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Derni
Oct 19, 09 11:35 AM CDT

Believers and non-believers should respect one another's position and not have to find fault. Obviously, either belief system with impact ones world view. As one that has studied theology and is also now an atheist I don't find fault but nor do I encouarge participating in a religious sect unl;ess one needs that to function in life -needed to suppport their world view. I am happy knowing that everyday is a gift and that it ends with death-love Dawkins writings on the internet. We have a great rescpect for life and would not encourage war-etc. life is too important. Whatever helps you get through life and doesn't hurt you or aothers is fine by me. Reply

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newsrmandan
Oct 19, 09 2:23 PM CDT

Derni with all due respect, your conclusion along with others that "believers" need religion or need a god in order to get through life, is baseless. Any belief system (religion) that is based on false assumptions is going to cause harm for the individual and for society at large. This includes atheism. Atheism must stand only after its been tested against all other truth claims. Your and others "search" for truth landed you at atheism, mine (and others) at the foot of Christ. Problem is we cannot have two truths. So how do you know your version of the truth has more, or is more truthful than my version of the truth? Truth is the only thing that must be respected, anyone that tolerates all claims to truth is being intolerant of truth. Atheism must accept Darwin's theory of evolution, because its the only one that fits your scheme. But Darwins theory because of its billions and billions of years and improbable chance, is a theory based on faith, an alternative faith. There is no possible way to know what happened billion of years ago. And so evolution is a religion of which Atheism is a sect. And you must reject it in order to maintain respect.

-1

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Unaffiliated
Oct 19, 09 2:53 PM CDT

That's an interesting idea, newsrmandan, but are you suggesting that one cannot believe in God /and/ accept Darwin's theory of evolution? I personally don't think that's the case, as I believe in God and I accept Darwin's theory.

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Spudsy
Oct 19, 09 3:17 PM CDT

Unaffiliated, that belief is what causes much of the friction. By going with evolution personally, you have edited the bible. You have cherry picked which parts to believe. I am sure you have, to your credit, cast aside the pro-slavery parts. And this is what infuriates non-believers. You can toss aside the parts that don't suit you but so many still want to retain other parts that don't suit others. I will mention gay marriage again as a point. It is actually easier for me to listen to a fundamentalist because I know he is sincere, he truly does believe in every word of his religious book. To use the bible about the rest, look at Revelation 3:16 -- So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

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Unaffiliated
Oct 19, 09 4:38 PM CDT

Well, I'm going to be 100% honest and tell you that I haven't made up my mind about 100% of the Bible yet (and probably never will). But I take each story from it in context and I look at what it's trying to teach and I look at how that can be applied to my life. To me, it is not necessary to believe every single word of the KJV is exactly as God intended, because I don't limit God to working through a fixed set of words whose meanings are human, words whose meanings change as languages change. When I read at the Bible, I think critically about who the audience is for a particular story, and who the author was (at least what general group of people authored the story), and I pray for God's assistance to learn what God wants me to learn from that story.

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newsrmandan
Oct 19, 09 5:08 PM CDT

@unaffiliated.... you cannot accept Gods word as true while at the same time accepting Evolutions claim as true. You're breaking a law of non-contradiction. It is not logical to accept both. When you affirm Gods word, you accept Gods claims, @ Spud "I am sure you have, to your credit, cast aside the pro-slavery parts"... Can you make an argument where the bible is "Pro" slavery. Is there a difference between regulating and demanding. What does the bible say about slavery and what does it say about homo sex. This may be asking too much but can you see a distinct difference?

-3

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Galileo
Oct 19, 09 6:24 PM CDT

@ newsrmandan - You have a total lack of understanding of evolutionary theory. I won't dare attempt to try to break it down for you here, but I would like to clear one thing up. Your belief in god and my belief in evolution are nowhere near the same thing. Darwin didn't have an "agenda" when he discovered evolution, as many of you seem to suggest. He used the scientific method to discover a scientific theory. This is not the same as being taught about the Bible and accepting it as the history of the universe. The equivalent of that would be if we atheists discovered a book buried in the ground called "Evolution," and the book just said "Billions of years ago the universe began, and things changed because of mysterious processes and got us here today." You're missing that whole critical part called empirical data, which separates Evolutionary Biology from Creationism. Lastly, your argument referring to "we weren't there, none of us truly saw it so we can't know." If you stand behind this, then we also can't know anything about physics, for example. You must agree that the atom doesn't exist because no one has ever seen it. A lot of science is based on studying what we can see to determine what it is we can't. But according to you, that's all just faith, and not real. So just so everyone's clear, newsrmandan doesn't believe in evolution, and necessarily doesn't believe in neutrons, protons, electrons, etc.

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newsrmandan
Oct 19, 09 7:18 PM CDT

@ galileo.. My belief in God does not negate any belief I have in science as far as neutrons and protons and atoms are concerned. Most Christians have a high view of science we just don't worship science like evolutionist do. Science to us proves a great imaginative God. Every discovery by science leads to more questions and more complexity. Science opens up the reality of things we could never see about God by our naked eyes. Science has its place to open up the locked world of Creation and the universe. God will never be fully comprehended so we have an eternity of scientific imperical data to mine. So you assume wrongly about science and the Christians. Because you start with wrong assumption you end up with a wrong conclusion. I will grant you that I lack much understanding in the field of evolutionary theory I especially am ill equipped to understand physics but I guess I am not the only one. Particle theory and string theory is fascinating to me but only because it reflects something of God to whom such things are hardly childs play.

-3

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Galileo
Oct 19, 09 7:38 PM CDT

@ newsrmandan - Unfortunately I don't start with any assumption, so therefore it can't be wrong. I did not make any assumptions about the relationship of religion and science. I simply took something you had said, and demonstrated the implications of your belief. Here it is again for you: You said we can't know for sure evolution is correct and that evolution takes just as much faith as religion because no one was around billions of years ago. In other words, if we didn't see it happen we can't know it. Here is your quote: "There is no possible way to know what happened billions of years ago." I then pointed out to you that if you believe this, consistently, it leads you to necessarily reject any scientific theory/knowledge that you can't actually see. How do you know the electron is there if you can't see it? If you can't trust evolution because no one was around to SEE bacteria evolving over billions of years, then you also can't trust scientists when they tell you about atoms. It's not that hard to understand. Scientists came about evolution the same way they came about electrons. They observed, gathered data, formed hypotheses and tested them. If we can see that x y and z are happening, there must be something there. The answer of what must be there was electron. Again, I never said your belief in god is incompatible with science. I took your own statement and applied it to another area of science to show you that it is a flawed idea. To show you that it is true in many instances that scientists use what they can use to determine what they can't. It's true of electrons, and it's true of evolution.

IN RESPONSE:

schmidtkoff
Oct 20, 09 11:04 AM CDT

@newrmandan – and i quote: “Derni with all due respect, your conclusion along with others that "believers" need religion or need a god in order to get through life, is baseless.” i would invite you to visit SC for you would then realize that "believers" need religion or need a god in order to get through life..." is not baseless but is their sole purpose in trudging through their life, which at every turn is beset with temptations from the (perceived) devil, that must be slain and fought relentlessly. their need for such a god is most definitely not baseless.

IN RESPONSE:

newsrmandan
Oct 20, 09 12:42 PM CDT

@ Gali.... I see your point your attempting to make. Its akin to me stuffing all atheists into a box labeled "copies of Madilene Murry Ohare" and every time I come across an atheist I pull out my favorite picture of her to try to show, as like in a mirror what atheists look like. That might be true but may not be fair, but you do the same against christians. You mistook me for saying something you could use to formulate a thought that fits your straw man argumentation. There are those scientists/evolutionary/atheists who believe contra the Bible that the earth and the universe was a product of random chance over the course of multi millions of years to get to the point where we are now. My statement is that this takes faith you of course say, its not faith its imperical data. I believe science to be true at points because it is the study of a natural order of which had a beginning, of which you claim to have happened by chance. I believe it happened by the will and power of the spoken word of God. That word became flesh in the historical Jesus. As far as bacteria evolving and us not being there to see it so I must not believe in the atom, how aren't you coming to this line of argumentation without assuming that evolution is the only possible way we got here. You are making an assumption, sure based on data that is manipulated to fit evolutions scheme or pattern. Derni and you and other atheists look at christians with this sort of high minded disdain and say " well whatever those poor little minds need to get through life" as if believing in the bible is some kind of crutch to aid us in life. I'll be honest its way more than a simple crutch. Its the gurney, the Ambulance the hospital, the doctors, the lawyers the judge and the jury. Whereas atheists use science as a crutch to hold up your ideas that there is no ultimate judge of this world. No one to whom you must give an account. Again you start withe the wrong premise (mutating chance) and you will always reach the wrong conclusion (no God).

-3

IN RESPONSE:

Galileo
Oct 20, 09 2:00 PM CDT

@news - I guess I will have to give up because you are absolutely unable to understand my posts. What I am saying in my posts has NOTHING TO DO WITH EVOLUTION VS CREATIONISM OR SCIENCE VS RELIGION. I am not making ANY ASSUMPTIONS. I am using a common technique which is to take your statement and attempt to show you it has other conclusions than the one you seek. For example, if you were to say "killing is wrong in all cases," I would use this same technique by applying your statement to cases of extreme self defense. I'd say, "a man is about to kill your son, you either kill the man or let your son die." Then you'd either have to abandon your original statement and admit you'd save your son, or stand behind it and say you'd let your son die. This is the same technique I'm using by taking your statement, "we didn't see it so we can't know," which you gave in regards to evolution, and applying it to atoms. I don't have to make any assumptions about evolution being the only way, etc. I am not making an argument for evolution in my posts. I am simply countering one of your arguments for why you think evolution is wrong. You say I'm stuffing all christians into a box, what are you talking about??? I am not making any generalizing statements. I am literally taking your words and saying, "but what about this?" You said, "As far as bacteria evolving and us not being there to see it so I must not believe in the atom, how aren't you coming to this line of argumentation without assuming that evolution is the only possible way we got here." It's very, very simple. I'm coming to this conclusion because one of your reasons for not believing in evolution is that no one was there to see it happen. What else wasn't anyone there to see? THE ATOM. SO IF EVOLUTION IS WRONG BECAUSE NO ONE SAW IT, THEN SO IS THE THEORY OF THE ATOM, VIA YOUR LOGIC. Whether or not evolution is the only theory has nothing to do with my argument. I DO NOT claim to have thus proven evolution is now true. Perhaps that's where the misunderstanding is coming from. I only claim to have proven that your reasoning in this case is flawed. I cannot make it any simpler than this.

IN RESPONSE:

newsrmandan
Oct 22, 09 1:51 PM CDT

@ gali... I see your point. You want me to be consistent in my statements. Ok thats fair but same goes for you. you said as part of your argument .... THE ATOM. SO IF EVOLUTION IS WRONG BECAUSE NO ONE SAW IT, THEN SO IS THE THEORY OF THE ATOM, VIA YOUR LOGIC". You want to make me out to be a non believer in the atom (therefore a fool) because no one was there to witness the first mutations of life. Fair enough, You are unduly holding me to a ridiculous position. But I wont assume you look and act like Ohare even though you think some of her same thoughts. But by your rigid logic you must look and act like her because you believe like her. Or would you allow some differences? I said belief in evolution is like unto faith, because no one has seen it take place (the first mutation) so you then assume that I, (to follow you logic to its end), cant believe in the Atom because it too is invisible. So because Atoms exists ergo My position (creation vs evolution) falls flat on its face and God doesn't exist....if no God no creation ergo evolution fits..... Like I said I see you logic its just that its wrong. My faith in the atom is based on scientific reasoning and experience, where as your faith in life springing forth from non existent elements by some random meeting as a product of an unprovable bang, is an absurd faith. Galli.... We are not going to solve this atheist question on this post but I assure you there will be future posts for us to interact but You must answer this question. 1) If there is no God as you say, why why why are there atheists? 2) if no God exists, is it not mental psychosis to insist that a non existing being, doesn't exists? 3) Why has evolution, if correct, allowed the developement of a Deity or as seen throughout ages multiple deities. What is it about man that senses something greater than him. You would logically conclude something had to instill in the mind of developing man a God. but how did that happen. I just don't thing your big bang has all the answers to big questions and until it does it must be held as questionable.

| 0 minutes ago

edbro
Oct 19, 09 11:48 AM CDT

I've often felt that the more militant atheists are reallly trying more to convince themselves than others. Reply

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rajanKazhmin
Oct 19, 09 12:35 PM CDT

You could say the same about people who try to "cure" the gays.

+12

IN RESPONSE:

piyrwq
Oct 19, 09 12:59 PM CDT

"militant" atheist? Really? Burning bibles, blow drying their hair and painting jesus' nails pink. This is not even in the same ballpark as militant religious folk who actually use guns etc to physically hurt people - THAT is militant! You can take you militant label and stuff it.

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Thinker
Oct 19, 09 6:18 PM CDT

piyrwq, well said. I was once a"born again" member of a mega church (Assembly of God), and lamented the fact that I couldn't get the gift of the holy spirit (speak in tongues). I heard the preacher talk of of glory of killing non-believers, abortion doctors and gays. He taught us how all other religions were of the devil. I began to see through the lies. I eventually began to recognize the hate. I also learned how evil and stupid Christians could be (after I left them and their church). My life was actually threatened by these god-loving individuals! These people are not harmless. These people should not be respected. These people are a danger to our way of life and society itself. I know. I was there.

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jdub
Oct 20, 09 10:29 AM CDT

Not unlike all of those "militant psychiatrists" who are just trying convince themselves that they are not the crazy ones.

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njgreen
Oct 19, 09 11:49 AM CDT

Hatred of all faiths other than itself? That's the one thing atheism was lacking in order to qualify as a true religion. Now it can. Reply

IN RESPONSE:

Thinker
Oct 19, 09 12:26 PM CDT

So, is your religion NOT believing in the invisible green clown who lives on the moon? Should I be referred to as a "non" everything I do not believe in or do (e.g., a "non-golfer," a "non-Mormon," a "non-stamp collector")? How does NOT believing in something qualify as a religion?

IN RESPONSE:

BoZo
Oct 19, 09 12:41 PM CDT

This is why I choose to follow the path of Cthulu. He's made up just like all the others. But he's awesome.

IN RESPONSE:

Jayster999
Oct 19, 09 1:26 PM CDT

Bleeb: I don't force my beliefs on others and there are no strings attached to my charitable efforts-- and the same holds true for others of my faith. We don't inject politics into our service either. I think that you're avoiding the truth because it makes you uncomfortable: Christians do a great deal of good in this world. Mock it, deride it and minimize it, but Christianity is a boon to mankind.

-3

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rajanKazhmin
Oct 19, 09 2:21 PM CDT

Jayster: FAIL. Off the top my my head-- your fierce opposition to gay marriage is your religion injecting its self into politics and other peoples lives.

IN RESPONSE:

Snarfeh
Oct 19, 09 2:34 PM CDT

A lot of wars have been related to religious beliefs but only in the sense that those in power use religious beliefs to stir the fears of the masses. Most wars really are about power, natural resources, boundaries, money, etc.

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Spudsy
Oct 19, 09 3:27 PM CDT

I don't think Jayster deserves all of those down thumbs here. But you need to change the last sentence to "WAS a boon to mankind." Religions are created to maintain a social order at that time. This is why so many have disappeared. The need for those social controls faded. Christianity had the good fortune to be in place when Gutenberg invented the printing press and with it, the mass media. That has allowed the religions of today to stay around much longer than the need for them. We would still have religions but they would be newer ones, whose holy writings would probably encourage population controls and environmental stewardship. Not reckless procreation and dominion over animals and the earth.

IN RESPONSE:

jdub
Oct 20, 09 10:44 AM CDT

Trying to equate Atheism to religion is like trying to say that standing still is a sport just because it is the exact opposite of running. "Atheism" is not a religion it never will be even though religionists try to paint it as one to justify their insanity as being equal to sanity.

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Dr.Gonzo
Oct 19, 09 11:49 AM CDT

War/violence will always exists, religion or not Reply

| 0 minutes ago

proud_prude
Oct 19, 09 11:50 AM CDT

Hitchens is an arse and what's worse-- an attention addict. Reply

IN RESPONSE:

Thinker
Oct 19, 09 7:29 PM CDT

Mat 7:1 Judge not lest ye be judged.

-1

| 0 minutes ago

davjc09
Oct 19, 09 11:51 AM CDT

Yeah, great point atheists. People of differing religions treat each other with hate and contempt. That causes violence. So religion is bad. So let's treat people of religion with hatred and contempt. Great gameplan. Hypocrites. Reply

IN RESPONSE:

Thinker
Oct 19, 09 12:34 PM CDT

I treat religious people with contempt because they are proud to be ignorant, not because they hate others.

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BleeBloo
Oct 19, 09 12:52 PM CDT

Not all Christians bomb abortion clinics or lobby to ban gay marriage. Even the article shows a divide there. Don't group all nonbelievers together.

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davjc09
Oct 19, 09 1:02 PM CDT

There is no evidence for the existance of a deity. And there is no evidence for the lack of a deity. None of us were there when the universe was first created. We won't ever know. Some people think that it's all by chance. Some think there was some divine role. But simply because you share a difference in opinion about what actually happened with someone does not mean the other person is ignorant. You are a closed-minded 'thinker.' A person's relgious beliefs is not solely indicative of their worth as a person.

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Thinker
Oct 19, 09 6:20 PM CDT

You can't prove a negative.

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Vyridian
Oct 19, 09 9:25 PM CDT

Thinker, I agree. But remember, atheists don't bear the burden of proof. Religions do. I only need to prove the existence of unicorns if I claim they exist. As my beliefs begin to affect the lives of others, proof becomes even more necessary. Religions get off far too easy. Their beliefs most certainly affect my life in many (mostly negative) ways. Atheists have every right to demand proof. If someone sets up a unicorn net in my back yard they better damn well prove to me there is a unicorn in the neighborhood.

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Thinker
Oct 20, 09 5:20 PM CDT

The really interesting thing is that religion is based on FAITH, not facts. Faith is KEY to salvation. The irony is that, if the Christians succeed in "proving" the existence of god, they immediately eliminate the need for faith and, as a result, completely destroy their own religion. It is so utterly senseless.

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cochiserocks
Oct 19, 09 12:10 PM CDT

Desiderata Go placidly amid the noise and haste, and remember what peace there may be in silence. As far as possible without surrender be on good terms with all persons. Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others, even the dull and the ignorant; they too have their story. Avoid loud and aggressive persons, they are vexations to the spirit. If you compare yourself with others, you may become vain and bitter; for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself. Enjoy your achievements as well as your plans. Keep interested in your own career, however humble; it is a real possession in the changing fortunes of time. Exercise caution in your business affairs; for the world is full of trickery. But let this not blind you to what virtue there is; many persons strive for high ideals; and everywhere life is full of heroism. Be yourself. Especially, do not feign affection. Neither be cynical about love; for in the face of all aridity and disenchantment it is as perennial as the grass. Take kindly the counsel of the years, gracefully surrendering the things of youth. Nurture strength of spirit to shield you in sudden misfortune. But do not distress yourself with dark imaginings. Many fears are born of fatigue and loneliness. Beyond a wholesome discipline, be gentle with yourself. You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should. Therefore be at peace with the universe, whatever you conceive it to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul. With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be cheerful. Strive to be happy. Max Ehrmann, No mention of God, but not necessarily wrong either. Reply

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QueenAlli
Oct 19, 09 12:17 PM CDT

YES! That's exactly what we need. More Intolerance. No matter what you believe, this will always be true: Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You. ------------------- This world would be much better if more people actually PRACTICED this saying. Reply

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Realist
Oct 19, 09 12:17 PM CDT

Religion is mankind's worst and most persistent invention. It retards and controls humanity. Reply

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GlennH
Oct 19, 09 12:21 PM CDT

I'm a lifelong atheist of the old school. If somebody needs to believe fairy tales to get through the day, it's fine with me. Reply

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Thinker
Oct 19, 09 12:32 PM CDT

Sure, fine, but it would be really nice if strangers would stop saying "God Bless You" to me on the train when I sneeze, then get angry when I don't say "thank you." It's completely silly. Why don't they say something religious to me when I cough (instead of giving me dirty looks)? I'm insulted by those who are proud to be ignorant. Religious nonsense really is pervasive, and I don't have to respect someone's religion any more than I have to respect their ignorance.

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Jayster999
Oct 19, 09 12:42 PM CDT

Glenny: You're missing the point of religion. It isn't something we "need" to get through the day, it's something that enriches our lives here, and gives us an opportunity for a greater reward in the next life. The IS a God, and he gives us a period on this earth in which to prove ourselves to him. A probationary state, if you will. So, as Christians, we try to follow the example of Jesus Christ and obey the word of God as best we can based on our own level of understanding and commitment. And for most of us, this makes our lives here more fulfilling. There would be a great deal more sin, criminal activity and less charitable work were Christianity to be done away with. We do much more good in the world than we are given credit for. We send money, food, clothing and blankets around the world to try and ease the suffering of others. What do you do?

-6

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BleeBloo
Oct 19, 09 12:50 PM CDT

Jayster, I don't force my views on others, force my lifestyle and beliefs on others, or send aid along with a condition that they need to believe. When I volunteer, I don't inject it with viewpoint or polotics. I just try to help people. And I don't need to be told by the Bible or Jesus that it's a good thing to do.

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Thinker
Oct 19, 09 12:58 PM CDT

"There would be a great deal more sin, criminal activity and less charitable work were Christianity to be done away with" Actually, Jay, the most religious states in the U.S. have higher crime rates (2008 Uniform Crime Reports), most pregnant teens (Journal of Reproductive Health, 2009) and, according to the FBI in a profiling study, "Nearly all serial killers are very devout men who were raised by members of Pentecostal sects, fundamentalist Catholics or were 'hard-shell' Baptists and Methodists."

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davjc09
Oct 19, 09 1:08 PM CDT

@Thinker: Correlation does not mean causation. I will not deny that religion in the wrong hands can be used for violence. But people who are actually TRUE to their beliefs are not about violence.

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Rocket448
Oct 19, 09 1:24 PM CDT

Thinker, why not just wear a surgical mask when you feel sneezy or have a bad cough? The chances are slim that anyone will stand anywhere near you. Not a solution to the "faith buzzer" but I'm pushing sanitary conditions during disease season.

-2

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Jayster999
Oct 19, 09 1:41 PM CDT

Thinker: Really? Utah is the most religious state in the union--no question about it. Has a pretty low level of crime comparatively. Serial killers cannot be devout Christians, because devout Christians don't murder. There have been a number of these types who were raised in religious environments, and many others who weren't. The truth is, there is no set pattern to the making of serial killers. Some of them start to go off track at a very young age, which points to inherent defect in many cases, rather than conditioning.

-2

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Jayster999
Oct 19, 09 1:43 PM CDT

Bleeber: I don't force my beliefs on others and there are no strings attached to my charitable efforts-- and the same holds true for others of my faith. We don't inject politics into our service either. I think that you're avoiding the truth because it makes you uncomfortable: Christians do a great deal of good in this world. Mock it, deride it and minimize it, but Christianity is a boon to mankind.

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GlennH
Oct 19, 09 1:57 PM CDT

Jayster 999: I understand the point of religion exactly: it's for people who are a) afraid to die and/or b) need some kind of external motive to be charitable. I do all kinds of good, charitable things with absolutely no expectation of reward in a mythical after-life. Better yet, I DON'T oppress people like gays, insist that others have to be atheists in order to be "saved," censor books and other media, go on crusades, find Jesus only after I'm caught committing a crime, or any of the other really destructive stuff the fairy-tale-believers typically do.

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Jayster999
Oct 19, 09 2:24 PM CDT

Glenny: Hey, you're pretty good. I actually fell for your anti-Christian trolling, thinking that I could get you to consider the possibility that you might be wrong and others might be right. At any rate, I'll bet you, or someone close to you has personally benefited from the good will of a Christian. Keep on bashing and we'll keep on giving, that's the way it's always been.

-2

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GlennH
Oct 19, 09 3:52 PM CDT

Jayster, my problem isn't with the people who are good so they can get into Heaven or the people who think they need Jesus to be saved or the people who are simply decent folk who happen to go to church. Those are the ones I'm fine with. But Christians, just like Muslims, have a bad habit of killing the folks who don't agree with them (see the Inquisition and the Crusades, not to mention the modern murders of gay people and others). They have a bad habit of telling people what to think, what to read, what to do, what to believe, even how to dress--and doing their best to punish those who don't go along. THAT's what I call "bashing."

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newsrmandan
Oct 19, 09 4:22 PM CDT

Glenn couldn't help myself ... But Christians, just like Muslims, have a bad habit of killing the folks who don't agree with them (see the Inquisition and the Crusades, not to mention the modern murders of gay people and others).... The problem is that these are not Christians.

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Thinker
Oct 19, 09 6:23 PM CDT

Davejc09, how can one be true to a fairy tale?

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Thinker
Oct 19, 09 6:26 PM CDT

Jayster, I didn't come up with the serial killer info. It's a compilation of characteristics, put together by the FBI, the people who actually study these crazy killers. And remember, all Christians consider themselves to be Christians, whether you think they are or not. It's not what IS that makes a Christian, it is what one thinks of oneself. These insane killers considered themselves to be Christians, just. like. you. do.

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Thinker
Oct 19, 09 6:31 PM CDT

Oh, and Jay? Utah buys more porn than any other state. A study recently done by Mr. Edelman of Harvard Business School shows that 8 of the top 10 online porn purchasing states were conservative/religious states (Utah was number 1).

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schmidtkoff
Oct 20, 09 11:23 AM CDT

@jayster - there is no next life. ashes to ashes and dust to dust. or the law of thermodynamics - that matter cannot be created or destroyed. it just turns into something else - it doesn't evaporate into a heaven or a hell. sorry.

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BoZo
Oct 19, 09 12:42 PM CDT

Oh wow I guess I'm an old school atheist. But I still wear my " Kiss me I'm Atheist" shirt every now and then. Reply

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donnz
Oct 19, 09 12:47 PM CDT

What ever works for you / unless you disrespect me for believing something you do not / or if I don't believe something you do. "Why can't we all just get along?... Tolerance should be the 'Word, for everybody. Reply

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elderban
Oct 19, 09 1:28 PM CDT

Isn't it a religion if they are trying to force their beliefs on others, even if it's Atheism? Kind of hypocritical, no? Reply

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Thinker
Oct 19, 09 6:32 PM CDT

elderban, not if the anti-religious are trying to force factual information on others, such as science. Then it's called "education."

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tran_tor
Oct 19, 09 10:57 PM CDT

@thinker, are you saying you are a supporter of forced education?

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Thinker
Oct 20, 09 5:23 PM CDT

tran_tor, you can lead a horse to water ...

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tran_tor
Oct 21, 09 6:42 PM CDT

@thinker: LOL, fair enough!

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Rocket448
Oct 19, 09 1:35 PM CDT

In the words of John Lennon, "Imagine there's no heaven -- It's easy if you try. No hell below us, above us only sky. Imagine all the people living for today...And no religion too! Imagine all the people living life in peace.." I enjoyfeeling I get from of belonging to a community of worship, I do pray the old words from the old prayer book. Its just that I would never ever put my faith ahead of reality. I would never believe another group was evil or less worthy than mine because my "faith leaders" told me so. You can say what you want about the pre-conditions of terror, those boys and girls strapping bombs to their bodies are doing it mostly because people who represent their god on earth have told them its right to do so. There's your "faith in action". That's the insidious, deadly force of faith. I don't believe that Baptists are Christians like I am, but they have a right to their interpretation of religion just as I do, here in this land of the free. Atheists are free NOT to believe. Its fallacious for any atheist to impose their worldview on me, just as it is for me to try to impose my worldview on them. But they're free to try. Ain't America great? Imagine a country in which religion played no part. Its easy if you try.... Reply

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newsrmandan
Oct 19, 09 2:35 PM CDT

Can you explain what kind of christian you are if your christianity is different than baptists?

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Spudsy
Oct 19, 09 6:42 PM CDT

Come on now newsmandan. Some of the worst wars and violence is between christian sects. Look at the protestant vs catholic violence that tore up Northern Ireland for so long so recently. Go back in history and you have England against pretty much most of Europe on and off. There are different kinds of christians and denomination matters to them. There was a huge cry about JFK being a catholic and other churches thought he would take orders from the pope. There are major differences.

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Rocket448
Oct 19, 09 7:05 PM CDT

Sure, Dan, there are several distinctions and I'll mention two: the church I belong to claims its authority from Apostolic Succession, that is, from Peter directly to me, from hand to head. The Baptists don't acknowledge Apostolic Succession. Also, as far as I can tell, a Baptist would require me to be baptized again upon admission to their sect, but my creed of faith acknowledges only one baptism for the forgiveness of sins, and that is typically offered to very young children in my church. I also acknowledge that my brand of Christianity may not conform to the exact sort of Church Jesus Christ founded, but I'm still free to affiliate with it, and to tolerate members of other sects who honor other traditions and express their belief in different ways than I do.

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Galileo
Oct 19, 09 1:39 PM CDT

I don't agree with unprovoked, mean-spirited attack on theists. But I DO agree we should debate it and organize in whatever way necessary to prevent religious influence in government and society. Saying, "let everyone just believe what they want," sounds nice, but it's not the reality of how it usually works. Sure a lot of people just mind their own business and believe in god, but many more try to push it into the government, and that's dangerous. Reply

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newsrmandan
Oct 19, 09 2:52 PM CDT

It was supposed to be a state free from the abuse of a "state sanctioned" faith. Not a Government absent any moral principle based on faith. Can you imagine a system of laws based on evolutionary (atheists) principles alone....... Judge: Why did you kill this man? Def: because I could and I wanted to. Judge: Case closed, let this man free, who did he harm?

-1

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Galileo
Oct 19, 09 5:44 PM CDT

Sorry newsrmandan, morals don't come from religion/god. I can in fact imagine a system of laws based on atheist principals. The laws would equally protect everyone's rights, even homosexuals. I'm not exactly sure where you get the idea that evolution and atheism are the same thing. Evolution is science, it's called Evolutionary Biology. Atheism is just a label for people who do not believe god exists. It's typical of the church to try to paint them with the same brush. Somehow you see a branch of science as "evil." That's the kind of scary stuff I'm talking about. Sorry, we're not going to allow the teaching of this science because it conflicts with this old book we all take literally even though it's always wrong on matters of science. Remember that whole thing where the church said the Earth was the center of the universe? Great job guys!

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Spudsy
Oct 19, 09 6:44 PM CDT

Be fair Galileo. The catholic church admitted that they were wrong on that whole center of the universe thing. In 1992. Okay, so they're a little slow on the uptake.

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OG_Travis
Oct 19, 09 1:57 PM CDT

they're all wacked out and it's an embarrassment that some ADULTS still believe in these fairy tales...this nonsense holds society back more than any other institution...mainly because all the other use religion to trick the masses into doing what they want....it's sad Reply

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Thinker
Oct 19, 09 6:36 PM CDT

Can you believe that god, the one who despises lukewarm believers, would let someone like BryanJ62 into his heaven? I can hear it now: [God] "Bryan, why do you believe in me?" [Bryan] "Just in case, god." Yeah, that would go over well.

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Thinker
Oct 19, 09 6:39 PM CDT

OG, I totally agree. If these Christians bothered to study ancient religions they would see that nothing from their dogma is original. They would see that religion is a tool used by the powerful to keep the masses in line. They would see that the most devout are the most feeble-minded, and that many religions, especially Christianity, is anti-democracy and anti-education and anti-tolerance. They seem so blind.

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BryanJ62
Oct 19, 09 2:09 PM CDT

One thing is for sure - One of us is wrong. Just to be on the safe side I'm not going to piss on or burn the bible. Reply

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Snarfeh
Oct 19, 09 2:36 PM CDT

lol!

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piyrwq
Oct 19, 09 2:58 PM CDT

What if the one true god hates the bible? Maybe you should piss on one just to be on the safe side.

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Unaffiliated
Oct 19, 09 4:40 PM CDT

A little Pascal's wager, Bryan?

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Galileo
Oct 19, 09 5:47 PM CDT

It's too bad people put stock in Pascal's Wager. It's a very weak argument.

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rajanKazhmin
Oct 19, 09 6:55 PM CDT

Totally weak. Why leave your house? You might get struck by lightening. Better safe than sorry. Stay inside, wear a helmet.

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bewilderbeast
Oct 21, 09 5:20 AM CDT

My response to Pascal's wager is: If there IS a GOD, I'm betting he's an intelligent dude (She's an intelligent gal). I'll also wager my all that he/she will be fair (unlike most of the 100's of "gods" man has made). SO: When I get to the pearly gates he's gonna say "Beast! Why didn't you believe in me?" and I'll say "No evidence, m'lord". And he'll wave me in with a smile. Looking over my shoulder he'll say to the priests and imams and rabbis behind me: "YOU LOT! Downstairs!!"

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spacematic
Oct 19, 09 3:19 PM CDT

Hey guys, let's burn all books we disagree with! Make a list of things people shouldn't read and rid the world of them for society's benefit forever!!! Let's round up the Book of the Dead, some Greek classics and Native American creation stories, too! This behavior will certainly get you attention, but it won't win hearts and minds to your cause, and it certainly doesn't appeal to intellect. These are the same tactics the atheist opposition uses. Fighting fire with fire only gets you a bigger fire. Reply

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Snarfeh
Oct 19, 09 4:30 PM CDT

Er...AMEN!

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Thinker
Oct 19, 09 6:41 PM CDT

The religious folks are the ones who burn books, or try to ban them.

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Unaffiliated
Oct 20, 09 10:20 AM CDT

@Thinker, did you SEE the video up above?

-1

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Snarfeh
Oct 20, 09 5:56 PM CDT

I saw the video. She was cute. I'd do her. Take off those glasses, let down that hair....bet she's wild as hell in bed....

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aces08
Oct 19, 09 3:48 PM CDT

The problem is philosophical. Some people find truth in comfort while others find comfort in truth. In other words religious people would take the blue pill (and stay into the Matrix) while non-believers would take the red pill (and see how far the rabbit hole goes). However, now you have the people who use believers for sinister ends. That's why the quote is correct that "There are good people and bad people regardless of religion but religion is the only thing that makes good people do bad things. That is why there should be no religion. Reply

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thejoint00
Oct 19, 09 3:51 PM CDT

in that case aethiests might as well consider themselves the new "party of NO" they aren't coming up with thier own ideas, they're just spewing hate against people who do have a plan. Reply

-1

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Galileo
Oct 19, 09 5:59 PM CDT

Incorrect. Atheists simply do not believe in god and therefore desire a totally secular government. That's their "plan." They want to stop religion from creeping into law and policy. They are only the party of NO in the same way that a guy telling someone not to jump off a bridge is a party of NO.

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thejoint00
Oct 20, 09 1:45 PM CDT

it must be easy to be anti-religous with out coming up with an actual religion of your own

-1

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Galileo
Oct 20, 09 2:21 PM CDT

I'm really not sure what you're going for here joint. You seem to be unable to comprehend that a lot of people do not want a religion to believe in. Like when christians ask atheists, "But what do you BELIEVE in??" They don't understand people can just believe in humanity and seek to live a good, happy life. We don't need or want to come up with "a religion of our own," so your statement makes absolutely no sense.

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thejoint00
Oct 21, 09 12:29 PM CDT

well then Gallileo, what beef is there that people who do not want a religion, with people that want a religion. if you want to promote your own faith or lack there of, do it. But athiests need to get off the hate bus. feel comfortable in knowing that you believe in humanity and living a good happy life, most christians believe that too. some just have a different vehicle to get them there. in a less agressive subject. Don't walk because you hate cars, that is just self punishment. walk because you enjoy walking. expound on it's benifits and accept it's weaknesses. I'm sure that atheist have much to prove however, hatered, and prejudism against those who choose religion is the exact hypocritical name calling that they are accusing christians of.

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DarkFrancis
Oct 19, 09 3:57 PM CDT

Perpetuating what one claims to despise is hardly the hallmark of a good atheist. I am an atheist, or post-theist...and while I find the bulk of religion a bit of a joke, if it came down to it I would fight for the right for my religious brothers and sisters to believe what they believe without being persecuted. Reply

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Thinker
Oct 19, 09 6:45 PM CDT

And I would fight for the right NOT to believe, and NOT to be persecuted because of my non-belief. Today, the right NOT to believe or support religion does not exist. My tax dollars go toward "faith-based" organizations and the military (some of the most proselytizing people in the world). Non-believers will never win a place in politics (executive, legislative or judicial branch) if they "come out." I cannot escape religion.

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DarkFrancis
Oct 19, 09 11:27 PM CDT

Non-believers in your country perhaps. My country has had avowed atheists as heads of government. I agree with you though, I want my rights as a non-believer protected, and I support sep of church and state in your country. Only a fool believes America is a Christian state.

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Snarfeh
Oct 19, 09 4:31 PM CDT

Thou art God. Grok? Reply

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Unaffiliated
Oct 19, 09 4:43 PM CDT

Nice, Snarfeh.

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Thinker
Oct 20, 09 5:26 PM CDT

Unaffiliated, "Stranger in a Strange Land" is one of the most anti-Christian books ever written. Were you insulting Snarfeh?

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Snarfeh
Oct 20, 09 5:47 PM CDT

@thinker - Even if he was, I still grok it as ok. Damn, I love that book, blatant sexism and all.

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Snarfeh
Oct 20, 09 5:57 PM CDT

For thinker and anyone else with a good sense of humor: http://steco.blogspot.com/2006/11/ymca.html

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kansas1946
Oct 19, 09 5:51 PM CDT

I am more the of "live and let live" crowd and long as the religious folks leave me alone and don't try and shove their beliefs down my throat throught legislation. Reply

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Galileo
Oct 19, 09 6:03 PM CDT

I agree kansas. But I think the angry atheism is a result of that very thing, religion in legislation. I know that as an atheist, I get very angry when I read a story about abstinence only education, creationism, etc. That said, angrily attacking religion is not the way to go. I think Richard Dawkins does a great job of demonstrating an effective way to combat religion in public life.

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schmidtkoff
Oct 20, 09 11:46 AM CDT

@galileo - thumbs up on that one. and others above.

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riffran
Oct 19, 09 8:21 PM CDT

I look at it this way...you beleive what you beleive, I do the same...we leave each other alone...but thats just me....... Reply

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anewday
Oct 19, 09 9:58 PM CDT

I believe religion can be utilized in a way to incorporate the true values of the human spirit, in the famous phrase of 'Do unto others" in order to make this a better world. Hate only begets hate, and there seems to be a lot of it in this article. Rather than wasting time burning bibles, i.e., help serve food at a soup kitchen for the needy - if you haven't already. Reply

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bewilderbeast
Oct 20, 09 6:44 AM CDT

All you religionists: As long as you truly believe in freedom, it's OK. Even when your church or holy book tells you to kill others, if you refuse and stand for true freedom FOR ALL, it's OK. And remember, the "Golden Rule" ("Do unto others . .") dated to the Middle Kingdom (c. 2040 - 1650 BCE) and was not a religious saying. It was recommended by wise and kind people long before the Old Testament, the Torah, Christ or Mohammed. It was HUMANIST, not religious. Look up "humanist" - and learn. Reply

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Thinker
Oct 20, 09 5:27 PM CDT

bewilderbeast, that was beautiful.

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schmidtkoff
Oct 20, 09 10:28 AM CDT

hitchens is a pompous pseudo intellectual. i live in sc where there are more churches per square city block than the so-called christians that frequent them. personally i find most god-fearing folks down here cling to their faith with a desperation that borders on the sheer terror of being ostracized if they do not follow the pack. they are pressured to pay their tithe, irregardless of their debt load. It is a badge of honor to pledge this money. you can’t fight this battle as it is a losing one and being aggressive about it is not going to sway them one iota . i have learned to just politely tell them that they have a right to their beliefs but please do not try to convert me for I am not of that faith. if anything, I believe in the buddhist philosophical teachings. i find that I can find more spirituality (religion?) viewing a luna moth resting at night than i can find in any organized religion. Reply

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Monjubikahn
Oct 20, 09 12:52 PM CDT

I must applaud Thinker. Thinker is a free spirit who lives by her words...I hope. Reply

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Thinker
Oct 20, 09 5:28 PM CDT

Monjubikahn, that was very kind. I am humbled.

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Monjubikahn
Oct 20, 09 1:06 PM CDT

I once spoke with an individual who told me that Satan was a freedom fighter. The right to not believe seems to feather the Dragons nest. Being the covetous being that he is , as he is the originator of capitalism, he wants it all, even if by default. Evolution is a theory it is not a proven law. Like the law of gravity. It cannot be applied to anything. It is an ethreal supposition that changes with the descovery of desecrated graves and bold pronouncements that are given air time. "It must be real because the brightest brains are debating it." We have a tendency to deceive ourselves and enjoy the deception. As Sponge Bob would say.."Good Luck with that." Reply

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Galileo
Oct 20, 09 2:35 PM CDT

Incorrect Monjub. It is Gravitational Theory. The rules within Gravitational Theory are laws. Saying something is "just a theory" is not a point against it. Theories cannot be proven, only disproven. So boasting that Evolutionary Theory is not yet proven is a totally misinformed idea. "Theory" merely describes it as a scientific process, in which it is constantly being tested and tuned to be more accurate as we discover more evidence. And if we were to discover evidence against it, it would similarly weaken. It's this kind of bad science that is rampant in the church and responsible for so much misunderstanding. When your preacher stands up and says, "Evolution is just a theory," and everyone claps and nods and high fives, it's kind of sad. Reply

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GlennH
Oct 20, 09 3:18 PM CDT

Exactly right. The mechanism of gravity is "just a theory," as is most everything in science from quantum mechanics to genetic inheritance. It's kind of the point of science. Clearly our citizens (and especially our preachers) need a lot better science education. Reply

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drlarrymitchell
Oct 20, 09 5:59 PM CDT

To quote Bill Maher: "I don't ridicule religion- IT RIDICULES ITSELF." Reply

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religion • atheism • blasphemy • atheists

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Atheists Split Over How Mean to Be to Faithful

'New atheists' want to decry religion, not just promote secularism

[Images (2)]

[Videos (1)]

Related Newser Stories

Aussie Scientologists Accused of Torture

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MOST POPULAR STORIES

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[ By Comments ]

from our news partners

Associated Press

About

Help

Tools

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What is Newser?

Aussie
Scientologists
Accused of Torture

MORE ABOUT:
abortion • torture • Australia • Scientology • religion • scientology Australia • scientology torture • scientology abortion

UK Man Worships at
Church of Climate Change

MORE ABOUT:
climate change • religion • frivolous lawsuits • religious persecution • Tim Nicholson

Court Bans Crucifixes
in Italian Classrooms

MORE ABOUT:
European Union • Italy • religion • Catholicism • European Court of Human Rights • crucifiction