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SUNDAY, NOVEMBER 22, 2009

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Amanda Knox:
Murder Charges
'Pure Fantasy'

Prosecutors ask for life sentence; defense prepares final arguments

Nov 21, 09 1:05 PM CST
Airline Pulls Own Mag After Holocaust Memorial Shoot

Budget easyJet did fashion spread without permission

Nov 20, 09 11:50 PM CST
Iraqi Prisoners Taunt Wis. Soldiers Over Favre Defection

Detainees get into the Packers-Vikings rivalry

Nov 20, 09 9:30 PM CST
Hadron Collider
Restarts Briefly

After 14 months of repairs, proton beams circulate

Nov 20, 09 6:06 PM CST
US Fears $53B
in Iraq Reconstruction
Will Go to Ruin

Projects from power plants to hospitals are at risk of sitting idle

Nov 21, 09 10:35 AM CST
UPDATED

Suicide Suspected
in Death of
Model Daul Kim

20-year-old South Korean beauty had popular blog, video diary

Nov 20, 09 10:57 AM CST
Pakistani Intelligence Sheltering Taliban Leader

Mullah Omar hiding in Karachi: US sources

Nov 20, 09 6:50 PM CST
2 Arrested in Italy for Aiding Mumbai Attackers

Duo allegedly transferred $299 for insurgents' phone lines

Nov 21, 09 7:57 AM CST
kercher murder trial

Knox Acted Out of
'Hatred': Prosecutor

Closing argument speaks of 'crescendo of violence'

Nov 20, 09 2:57 PM CST
Peru Gang Accused
of Killing to Harvest Fat

Cosmetics firms said to pay $60K/gallon; experts skeptical

Nov 19, 09 10:00 PM CST
US Recruits Allies
for Afghan Surge

White House is quietly looking for 3K to 7K NATO troops

Nov 21, 09 8:39 AM CST
Vatican Historian:
Shroud of Turin
Is Authentic

Barely visible writing has Jesus' name, she says

Nov 20, 09 11:24 AM CST
India Miffed By Obama's Bond With Beijing

Perceived slights complicate PM Singh's DC visit next week

Nov 20, 09 6:30 PM CST

|NEXT STORY »

Clinton's Mideast Push Hits Brick Wall

Palestinians rebuff Israeli offer to slow but not stop settlements

By John Johnson| Posted Oct 31, 09 11:30 PM CDT|

(Newser) – Hillary Clinton's day of diplomacy in the Mideast yielded little progress. She met separately with Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas and Israeli leader Benjamin Netanyahu but did not secure a deal to restart peace talks. The main sticking point: Abbas rebuffed an offer from Netanyahu—and relayed by Clinton—to slow but not stop new settlements. Clinton called the offer "unprecedented," but Abbas called it a "non-starter," reports the New York Times.

“Mr. Netanyahu has a choice, settlements or peace, and he has chosen settlements," said Abbas. Netanyahu said no such restrictions on settlements have ever been a condition for talks, notes the Wall Street Journal. Clinton agreed: "What the prime minister is saying is historically accurate," she said. "What the prime minister has offered ... is unprecedented in the context of prior to negotiations."

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, speaks as Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton listens during a press conference in Jerusalem. (AP Photo/Dan Balilty)

In this picture from Emirates News Agency, U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton meets with Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, 2nd left, in Abu Dhabi. (AP Photo / WAM-HO)

U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton reacts as Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu looks on during a press conference in Jerusalem. (AP Photo/Dan Balilty)

U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton and Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu during a press conference in Jerusalem Saturday. (AP Photo/ Rina Castelnuovo, Pool)

U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton shakes hands with Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak ahead of their meeting in Jerusalem Saturday Oct. 31, 2009. (AP Photo/Ronen Zvulun , Pool)

View larger images >>

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11.20.09

The Health-Care Wars Have Just Begun

11.19.09

Sarah Palin Deserves Some More Attention

68 comments

VIEWING:

riffran
Nov 1, 09 12:57 AM CDT

I expect the rocket launches and suicide bombings to start again soon Reply

IN RESPONSE:

Stuart
Nov 1, 09 4:47 AM CST

Funny how the story says the reason is that the Palestinians refuse to negotiate but the picture shows the Israeli PM

IN RESPONSE:

dontlikeyou
Nov 1, 09 6:47 AM CST

The Israelis see Obama weakening his own country. Why would they want to follow this man into weakness? Do you think the Jewish PM is going to respect Obama after he bowed to the Muslim king of Saudi Arabia?

-3

IN RESPONSE:

RockyPneumonia
Nov 1, 09 6:53 AM CST

dontlikeyou, no sane person thinks that's an issue. Not one.

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shonangreg
Nov 1, 09 7:23 AM CST

You expect the rocket launches to start again soon, riffran? The building of new houses doesn't concern you? how can you be so selective?

IN RESPONSE:

RockyPneumonia
Nov 1, 09 7:28 AM CST

shonangreg, listen to yourself. You're equating the building of new houses (which I agree is wrong) with the attempts to blow up Israeli civilians with rockets. ...and riff is wrong -- the rockets won't start again, since for them to "start again", they first would have to have stopped.

IN RESPONSE:

Sphinx
Nov 1, 09 1:43 PM CST

Rocky - the rockets did stop... during the ceasefire preceding the offensive on Gaza: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfFMZ7Y-s_c

IN RESPONSE:

RockyPneumonia
Nov 1, 09 2:08 PM CST

Yes, sphinx, and then they started again -- hence, the offensive. If the Palestinians would stop murdering Israelis, the Israelis wouldn't have to retaliate.

IN RESPONSE:

Snowleopard
Nov 1, 09 5:50 PM CST

The Palestinians refuse to negotiate because Isreal is still expanding its settlements and stealing more palestinian land. Isreal now occupies over 95% of what was Palestine.

IN RESPONSE:

shonangreg
Nov 1, 09 6:57 PM CST

If Israel would stop occupying Palestinian land, hoarding the water, and EXPANDING SETTLEMENTS, then the Palestinians would have nothing to fight about. Israel has been making the first move every step of the way. The Palestinians are just fighting back.

IN RESPONSE:

RockyPneumonia
Nov 1, 09 9:12 PM CST

"If Israel would stop occupying Palestinian land," They occupied the West Bank and Gaza in 1967 because for 19 years those territories, along with the Golan Heights, had been used as bases for terrorist attacks on Israeli civilians. See? We're back to that inconvenient fact that the Palestinians need to stop murdering Israelis.

-1

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riffran
Nov 1, 09 10:10 PM CST

ok lol...TOUCHE' there rocky......But I thought that they had stopped...at least I haven't heard of it lately

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Gallstone
Nov 1, 09 1:04 AM CST

Seems to me Netanyahu doesn't want peace, he just wants people to think he's is willing to negotiate. With these kinds of demands he can tell the more liberal Isreali he's trying and keep the nationalists happy at the same time... Settlements are still in violation of international laws (which doesn't mean much anymore, I know). Reply

IN RESPONSE:

emptycalm
Nov 1, 09 1:14 AM CST

He's a true politician.

IN RESPONSE:

RockyPneumonia
Nov 1, 09 1:26 AM CST

...And launching rockets at Israeli cities is not a "violation of international laws"?

IN RESPONSE:

RockyPneumonia
Nov 1, 09 1:35 AM CST

Pragmaticrealism, if someone had challenged you to post a two-word message proving that you know nothing about the politics of the region, you could not have come up with a better answer.

IN RESPONSE:

Pragmaticrealism
Nov 1, 09 1:42 AM CST

Liberal Israelis?

IN RESPONSE:

cochiserocks
Nov 1, 09 4:52 AM CST

it' becoming less about international law as time moves on. International law only counts if the world is willing to enforce it. Otherwise, it's more of a guideline for press articles.

IN RESPONSE:

Gallstone
Nov 1, 09 11:37 AM CST

RockePneumonia, you're absolutely right. Palestinians should stop attacking Isrealian cities and to be honest I don't the fanatics will ever stop to do so, but (as I understand it) Isreal is occupying land that's not theirs. So I think Abbas' point seems valid.

IN RESPONSE:

RockyPneumonia
Nov 1, 09 10:05 PM CST

Gallstone, Israel is occupying Gaza and the West Bank because those areas were used as bases for terrorist attacks on Israeli civilians. If the Palestinians would stop killing Israelis, the Israelis could withdraw.

| 0 minutes ago

kokuaguy
Nov 1, 09 1:04 AM CST

Cool the way you guys squeezed that in between the Seacrest "news" and the World Series story. ; ^) Reply

-1

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kokuaguy
Nov 1, 09 1:10 AM CST

25 Minutes ago Reuters reported: President Barack Obama said on Saturday this week's positive job and economic growth figures proved that his big spending efforts to stimulate the economy were working. But he cautioned in his weekly radio address to Americans that "we have a long way to go before we return to prosperity" and more job losses were likely in coming days. http://www.reuters.com/article/ousivMolt/idUSTRE59U0N220091101 Reply

-2

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dontlikeyou
Nov 1, 09 6:48 AM CST

No jobs = no recovery.

-1

| 0 minutes ago

yoeydude
Nov 1, 09 1:15 AM CST

this is a rerun I'm tired of watching Reply

| 0 minutes ago

hughchi
Nov 1, 09 6:33 AM CST

Ban all religions. Reply

IN RESPONSE:

dontlikeyou
Nov 1, 09 6:49 AM CST

Ban yours too then. Atheism is a faith, you know.

IN RESPONSE:

mikech
Nov 1, 09 9:55 AM CST

Second.

IN RESPONSE:

dontlikenobody
Nov 1, 09 10:39 AM CST

Then, dly, you really don't understand atheism.

IN RESPONSE:

RockyPneumonia
Nov 1, 09 11:21 AM CST

logothete, we can add "atheism" to the very long list of thing DLY doesn't understand, but opines on anyway.

IN RESPONSE:

my-name-here
Nov 1, 09 2:29 PM CST

Atheism is just another religion is like saying being healthy is just another kind of disease...

| 0 minutes ago

atonausar
Nov 1, 09 8:07 AM CST

There has never been a time when colonized people have agreed to peace while colonial interests continue to appropriate their land. All parties involved know this including Netanyahu. Any offers to restart a peace process without acknowledging this is empty posturing. Shame on Hillary Clinton and the Obama administration for agreeing to legitimize propaganda as a peace offer. Reply

IN RESPONSE:

RockyPneumonia
Nov 1, 09 8:49 AM CST

...And if the Palestinians were "colonized paople", you'd have a point but, since they're not, your post is irrelevant.

-5

IN RESPONSE:

dontlikenobody
Nov 1, 09 10:42 AM CST

They're not? Who the hell are you kidding? Colonization started in the 1920s, following the Balfour declaration, and came to its apogee following 1948. And PLEASE don't argue Biblical promises.

IN RESPONSE:

RockyPneumonia
Nov 1, 09 11:26 AM CST

No need to argue on Biblical grounds, logothete; there has been a continuous Jewish presence there since before there were "Palestinians" (indeed, until 1948, the term referred only to Jewish residents of the region), and -- Arab propaganda notwithstanding --any lands that became Jewish after the Balfour Declaration were purchased from the Arab owners at great monetary expence. Now here's where you embarrass yourself by claiming I'm wrong, based on your heartfelt certainty that it MUST be so. Read contemporary news accounts. Read the histories written by the British.

IN RESPONSE:

Enoughie
Nov 1, 09 2:33 PM CST

I don't see how "colonization" is exclusively Jewish. How do you think Arabs got to all the lands throughout the Middle East? Magic? Cities like Basra, Fustat (near Cairo), Rabat (Morocco), Kufa, Akbar, etc. etc. were all Arab-only garrison towns that were later transformed into colonies. Of course the difference between an Arab colony and a Jewish one is that Arab armies conquered the land and then colonized it, while Jews bought land and settled it.

IN RESPONSE:

dontlikenobody
Nov 1, 09 2:43 PM CST

Hell no, Rocky, you're not wrong there have been jews in Palestine for a considerable period of time. And there were Europeans in North America as of roughly 950 AD. And the Balfour declaration did provide for the purchase of Arab land in Palestine, and a lot of it was purchased at a fair price, even though there was pushback and violence as early as 1931 (kibbutzes raided, gunfire,etc). And Europeans purchased Manhattan island and several other pieces of land at what was considered a fair price, although there was pushback as early as 1624 (settlements raided, massacres - on both sides - etc.). Would you argue that we weren't colonists, and the native americans weren't colonized? I hope not. Atonausar's point remains valid, and far from irrelevant, particularly given current Israeli attitudes toward Palestinian Arabs.

| 0 minutes ago

jamerican
Nov 1, 09 8:21 AM CST

Like it or not Israel is God's chosen nation and people and Islam is a false religio. America has always understood this and supported Israel knowing that God has promised to support those who support his people. Reply

-8

IN RESPONSE:

atonausar
Nov 1, 09 8:27 AM CST

Yo Gabba Gabba Yo!

IN RESPONSE:

RockyPneumonia
Nov 1, 09 8:50 AM CST

jamerican, there are many rational arguments in support of Israel. Yours is not one of them.

IN RESPONSE:

dontlikenobody
Nov 1, 09 10:45 AM CST

Does Newser have many medieval village idiots like Jamerican and dly, or are we just blessed with the majority?

IN RESPONSE:

RockyPneumonia
Nov 1, 09 1:17 PM CST

logothete, unfortunately, yes.

IN RESPONSE:

fancygapva
Nov 1, 09 8:00 PM CST

So now I know what the J stands for. Silly me, I thought it was Jamaican. It is exactly this entitled attitude O chosen one, that makes the Palestinians feel like y'all are not good neighbors. There's no talking sense to anyone whose attitude is I'm right and it's all mine because God said so 5000 years ago. It is precisely the idea of a return of Greater Judea to the Jewish people (which I believe would include Jordan, Lebanon and God knows what else, right?) that means there can be no peace there because some Palestinians had been living on and cultivating that land for thousands of years and then you guys barge in from the early 20th Century on buying up and finally just taking land (note orchards cut in half by The Wall) and water and marginalizing the population into Ghettos, bulldozing homes and orchards and shooting Palestinian children that provokes the suicide bombers. I'm not saying that either side is right, but unequal war is fought when one side has all the guns and the other side has only their hopelessness to fight with. Peace? Not until some idea of fairness and equality is introduced into the conversation and as long as "God gave it to us" is the underlying "logic" of the most powerful side in the conflict, I don't see much hope for peace. I do see Israeli strategy as partly responsible for how the Palestinians fight back. Nobody in this conflict is completely right or completely wrong.

IN RESPONSE:

fancygapva
Nov 1, 09 8:09 PM CST

@enoughie Are you saying that Israel has been so law abiding in Gaza? If you look at a map of the Occupied Territories you will see that where Palestinians live is in little enclaves surrounded by Israeli occupied land and to travel between them under Israeli aparthied they travel on different roads than Israelis and stop frequently at check points where they may be told to step out of the car, searched at length and possibly might just deliver a baby while trying to get through checkpoints to a hospital. If that was your daily life, what would you do about it?

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RockyPneumonia
Nov 1, 09 9:15 PM CST

Yes, fancygapva, because when they're NOT required to pass through checkpoints, terrorists kill Israeli civilians. Israel is not going to allow its citizens to be murdered just because you want them to do so. Sorry.

-1

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fancygapva
Nov 2, 09 6:00 AM CST

@ enoughie The problem is that you don't see that what the Israelis do to cause what the Palestinians do and how you have this endless feud of Hatfields and McCoys with no end to it because "God is on the side of the chosen." Because of the inequality in arms, the Palestinians have shoulder fired rockets and suicide vests and the Israelis have modern guns, tanks, rockets and all the tactical advantage AND they by policy try to take 100 Palestinian lives for their one Chosen one who is killed. Palestinians live in Ghettos and killed like animals. If the case were reversed, what would you do? If you were oppressed instead of special? Someone has to stop it. This country provides "loans" that are always forgiven and military materials while Isreal's special status has allowed it to build and equip missiles with nuclear bombs without having to admit it or be inspected. Now, is that how a good neighbor acts? Oh, and I might mention that neither Israel nor the United States recognizes the democratically elected president of the Palestinian Territories. They have Abbas in their pockets and he will come around and negotiate while the Israelis in fact build more settlements, not just houses, swimming pools, stores, neighborhoods, schools and temples. Settlements overlooking the squaler that is the Occupied Territories.

-1

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RockyPneumonia
Nov 2, 09 6:16 AM CST

" you don't see that what the Israelis do to cause what the Palestinians do" -- Just so everyone's clear on this, fancygapva, you are justifying -- or trying to -- blowing up teenagers in pizza parlors.

IN RESPONSE:

dontlikenobody
Nov 2, 09 7:59 AM CST

Rocky, stop with the "tit-for-tat" argument. There has been innocent blood shed on both sides, although, if I had to choose, I'd say that much more has been shed on the Arab side - perhaps 50 or 60 times more. The point is to get some sort of peace process moving again, and both sides are resisting and showing bad faith. Israel, at this moment, has reneged on its commitments, going so far as to deny they ever existed and continuing its expansion in the face of explicit UN resolutions. The Arabs have shown no real desire to rein in their radical elements, including Hamas, which continues to wage its own form of jihad. I'm perilously close to saying a pox on both of them - make war or make love, but do it on your own. No support, no resupply.

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fancygapva
Nov 2, 09 10:00 AM CST

@logothete Exactly. Since talking and roadmaps don't work, let's cut off the spigot to both places and let them fight it out on a level playing field (at least after the Israelis run out of ammo.

IN RESPONSE:

yoeydude
Nov 4, 09 4:36 PM CST

once again ja dick , shows the sad state of education in this country ,... religious theater in all things ,... you are in the wrong century ,... on the wrong news site ,... you are a regular @ townhall and worldnet ,... they would embrace you

| 0 minutes ago

atonausar
Nov 1, 09 8:25 AM CST

The nature of the roadblock to peace is at issue. Whether it is the refusal to stop settlements or whether it the refusal to accepting a peace process that fundamentally erodes sovereignty for Palestinians over their own land. Continued settlement (colonial confiscation) of Palestinian land prevents any discussion towards resolution of the greater issues of peace and coexistence. Reply

IN RESPONSE:

Enoughie
Nov 1, 09 10:18 AM CST

Too bad there is no "continued settlement of Palestinian land"... even though I oppose the whole settlement project, the settlements are 1.7% of the West Bank. All construction in these settlements has been within the municipal boundaries of this 1.7% of the area. So it is more of an excuse to refuse negotiations than a real concern of the Palestinians. (Not to mention that Netanyahu has agreed to freeze the construction within most of that 1.7%...)

-2

IN RESPONSE:

dontlikenobody
Nov 1, 09 10:48 AM CST

Although that 1.7% just happens to be the West Bank's most productive farmland ...

IN RESPONSE:

kokuaguy
Nov 1, 09 11:24 AM CST

I don't buy the 1.7%-- I doubt it covers lands lost due to the illegal construction of the "separation wall" and the highways linking the settlements which the Palestinians are not allowed to use.

IN RESPONSE:

RockyPneumonia
Nov 1, 09 11:28 AM CST

Interestingly, kokuaguy, where the fence has been completed, there are almost no terrorist attacks. If the Palestinians would stop murdering Israelis, the fence would be unneeded.

IN RESPONSE:

fancygapva
Nov 1, 09 8:10 PM CST

Sorry, I posted under the wrong reply above. @enoughie Are you saying that Israel has been so law abiding in Gaza? If you look at a map of the Occupied Territories you will see that where Palestinians live is in little enclaves surrounded by Israeli occupied land and to travel between them under Israeli aparthied they travel on different roads than Israelis and stop frequently at check points where they may be told to step out of the car, searched at length and possibly might just deliver a baby while trying to get through checkpoints to a hospital. If that was your daily life, what would you do about it?

IN RESPONSE:

Enoughie
Nov 2, 09 12:13 AM CST

@fancygapva: You know where else there are "checkpoints"? in airports, in Israeli shopping-malls, restaurants, nightclubs, schools, universities, hospitals, government buildings, sometimes on Israeli roads, tall buildings, should I go on? You think Israelis like having these "checkpoints" as part of their daily life? No, But you know why sometimes "checkpoints" are necessary? Because there are some, who are taught from a very young age that to kill Israelis may get them to heaven, and that they are doing it in the name of "resistance," or some other "noble" cause. So no, I don't like "checkpoints" but I prefer to be alive rather than dead, and that those who are interested in killing Israelis to be stopped somewhere along the way in some "checkpoint" rather than collected as body-parts from the floor of some nightclub. And I prefer peace and freedom and equality to conflict and war. And that Palestinians will not be taught this madness, and be able to live freely and prosper as good neighbors. That's why it would be nice if Mr. Abbas would stop mounting new and unheard-of demands and start negotiating for a peace settlement.

IN RESPONSE:

Enoughie
Nov 2, 09 9:36 AM CST

And here is a little bit of history that you may want to consider - until 1987 there was not even ONE single checkpoint in the West Bank. In fact, you could drive from Ramallah and end up in Tel Aviv without even knowing when you left the West Bank or entered Israel. And there were no separate roads back then either. So your propagandist claims of "apartheid" are ridiculous. You know why we have these roads, and checkpoints, and barriers now? Because in 1993 we thought it would be a good idea to allow the PLO terrorist organization (which the whole world recognized as the only legitimate leader of the Palestinians) to come into Gaza and the WB, and to negotiate with them a peace settlement. In a few stages the PLO received an autonomous status and directly governed 97% of Palestinians in Gaza and the WB. But instead of building infrastructure for schools and factories they were building an infrastructure for the next terror campaign (explosive labs, training camps, and indoctrinating children to want to "liberate" the whole of Palestine through Jihad). The children who were 11 in 1993 turned 18 in 2000. And that is when the organized terror campaign - deceitfully called the "al-Aqsa Intifada" - started. So why Israelis have some separate roads now? Because Palestinian terrorists were shooting and throwing molotov cocktails at cars, killing quite a few babies and their parents. Why are there checkpoints? Why is there a barrier (which is 97% fence and 3% wall)? Because suicide bombers were constantly infiltrating Israeli towns and murdering dozens of innocent civilians. When all this madness stops maybe then we'll be able to live normal lives - but to claim that Israel tries to make life difficult for the Palestinians on purpose? You have to be either ignorant or wicked to do that.

-2

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fancygapva
Nov 2, 09 10:20 AM CST

@ enoughie, my! and those Palestinians just threw molotov cocktails at you for no reason? Somehow I feel like a teacher talking to two boys fighting in the school yard. Who started this problem now? Of course, one of the boys isn't on the internet and so he hasn't said anything, but you, enoughie, it's clear you don't think your adversary is quite human and can't figure out why he would be shooting at you. I certainly don't think people should fight like you and your neighbor, but I don't think big guys should oppress occupied populations. If you think about it, the Palestinians live in Ghettos and go through humiliations similar to those that the Jews did during the Holocaust in Europe. What if you negotiated in sincirity for peace? What if there was a right of return and you agreed to move out of the homes you occupied and the farms and orchards you took? Hey, I'm from the US. We did horrible things to the people who lived here before us and now have bunches of them cooped up, in squalor and dependency on "reservations." I hate that too. Did those Native Americans, defending their homelands brutally kill settlers? Yes. From this distance it's easy to see why they did so and that what we did is wrong. Thank God many can leave the reservations now and find life and work --and be assimilated. Jews and Arabs are more alike than caucasions and Native Americans. Perhaps in a hundred years or so assimilation will occur....or peace will come from total exhaustion of both sides. Or perhaps you will kill or drive out all the Palestinians and Arabs from Greater Judea and you'll win. What is that process called? Genocide? Relocation? For damned sure you have a policy of aparthied in the Occupied Territories and Israel and it's no more right than it was in South Africa.

IN RESPONSE:

Enoughie
Nov 2, 09 11:18 AM CST

@fancygapva: Yes, Israelis did a terrible thing to deserve having their children be murdered - they dared to be alive. How preposterous! Don't try to moralize terror, and don't try to bend facts backwards. The Israeli occupation didn't start because Israel thought it would be nice to have millions of Palestinians under its control - it started because Egypt wanted to wipe Israel off the face of the planet (with the help of Syria and Jordan), but failed to do so in the 1967 war. The PLO was established in 1964 - four years BEFORE the occupation, and its goal has been to destroy Israel. If you expect Israel to apologize for existing, it's not going to happen. I don't know why you would feel the a teacher, you clearly have very little grasp of the material, but perhaps you think having an opinion based in your delusions is enough to moralize. And before 1967? What did Israel do to deserve the invasion of Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Iraq, and Lebanon? It dared to declare independence! I don't see from where you derive the idea that I don't see my adversaries as human - perhaps you base it more on your own outlook, but that is a problem you have to deal with. The quality of life in the West Bank and Gaza is still better than in Iran, Egypt and Turkey. If the Palestinians live like in ghettos during the holocaust, do you suggest life in Turkey is WORSE than in the holocaust? Very interesting argument there. If Palestinians refugees want to return to Israel, that's fine - considering the fact that 60% of Israeli Jews are refugees or descendant of refugees from ARAB countries (who, it is estimated had properties the size of 4 times the state of Israel). So yes, let's negotiate. Also, your lies about proportionality - in all Israel's wars and conflicts about 60,000 Arabs were killed, compared to about 23,000 Israelis. That is far from a 100:1 ratio. Clearly you are not interested in reality or facts - you prefer to spraed LIES and HATE, and that's a shame.

-1

| 0 minutes ago

Cat-Lover
Nov 1, 09 3:16 PM CST

I strongly support Israel's right to exist -- STRONGLY -- but I don't think Israel has any right to EXPAND its settlements into disputed territory if it really wants to resolve this international crisis. I think it's time we tell Israel that if they continue to establish more settlements, they do it on their own and we will not assist, support or protect them in this endeavor. Reply

IN RESPONSE:

RockyPneumonia
Nov 1, 09 5:21 PM CST

I agree, Cat; my argument is with those whose hatred of Israel is so strong and so irrational that they can't understand the difference between building a house and destroying one with a rocket.

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dontlikenobody
Nov 1, 09 9:21 PM CST

Cat-lover, you've got it dead right. Israel must have the right to exist. The current government, however, is acting like the local bully and expecting us to act as its cheering section. Eretz Israel has the strongest, most professional army around, and is the only nuclear power in the immediate vicinity - why must the US bow so consistently to its wishes and support it no matter what? Their most recent behavior toward the Palestinian Arabs smells to high heaven of some of the wartime excesses of Nazism - ghettoization, reprisals, destruction of civilian dwellings, etc almost ad nauseam.

IN RESPONSE:

RockyPneumonia
Nov 1, 09 11:12 PM CST

By "their most recent behavior ," I assume you mean the Israelis' annoying insistence on still breathing. As far as ghettoization goses, Israel didn't put the Palestinians in squalid refugee camps -- Jordan and Egypt did that in 1949, because it was politically expedient to do so. The roads in Gaza and the West Bank -- built by Israel. The hospitals -- built by Israel. The schools that Hamas fires rockets from so that the Israelis will be forced to attack them -- built by Israel. Comparing Israel to the Nazis is the act of someone whose knowledge of the situation in the Middle East is entirely composed of what he's sure MUST be so, instead of on any kind of factual basis.

IN RESPONSE:

dontlikenobody
Nov 2, 09 8:11 AM CST

Rocky - don't do this. In general, I have a great deal of respect for your opinions. Here, no. You, I'm afraid, are showing the reflexive behavior, even in the face of reasoned argument. There's no need for ad hominem - it betrays the validity of your point of view and undercuts rational discourse. NOBODY has said anything at all about Israeli citizens and their right to breathe - the questions that I raised were twofold: the proportionality of Israeli response, as judged by the UN and the Geneva convention, and the continued blind US commitment to Israel, right or wrong, no matter what. Responses to those questions should not be couched as a partisan attack on sonebody else's knowledge base, even if you are as deeply partisan as you seem to be showing yourself to be.

IN RESPONSE:

RockyPneumonia
Nov 2, 09 8:36 AM CST

" You, I'm afraid, are showing the reflexive behavior, even in the face of reasoned argument." No. My argument is based on historical fact, easily verified by reading any objective history of the region or, for that matter, buy reading contemporaneous newspapers. Your argument, on the other hand, is based on what you're sure MUST be so.

-2

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dontlikenobody
Nov 2, 09 9:53 AM CST

"Your argument, on the other hand, is based on what you're sure MUST be so." What leads you to think that? The fact that I disagree with your reading of current Israeli policies? Forget history for the moment, if you can - we are at this point in the thread arguing current events. Let me make one thing very clear - I am NOT an Arab apologist. But neither am I an Israeli apologist, nor will I close my eyes to excesses on BOTH sides. I'm not sure what the source of your emotionalism is at this point, but it's getting in our way.

| 0 minutes ago

yoeydude
Nov 1, 09 9:28 PM CST

dontthinkmuch is a broken record that is most aggrivating ,.... although a site where everyone agreed might be boring ,.... this creep has no imagination , no humor , no wit ,.... what the fuck are you good for ? ,.. you're as irritating as the pothole not quite big enough for the city to come out and fix ,... or that drunk middle-age fan behind you at the game , that cant even get his insults out correctly because he is a dumb as a bag of nails ,.... man you are just old and tired ,... I smell mothballs when I read your whining and attemps at shit talking ,.... go home already , you were done in the eighties Reply

| 0 minutes ago

Silverbow7
Nov 2, 09 8:18 AM CST

All this nit-picking.This is about ancient racial and religious hatred. Palestinians want it all back and all Jews dead. (Or so they loudly proclaim regularly). This is not about a small bit of land. It is about all the land and the end of the Jews in the only homeland they have ever had. I do feel sorry for the Palestinians but I also see they are making their own hell there. Reply

-2

| 0 minutes ago

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Hillary Clinton • Israel • Mahmoud Abbas • secretary of State • Benjamin Netanyahu • Israel and Palestinians • Palestinians • Mideast peace talks • Arab-Israeli conflict

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